Opening a Microbrewery / Brewpub

[Helium]

I know there's a trillion ways to do this, but how would one go from modest home brewing to opening their own pub with their brew on tap?
I don't mean licensing, but technically.
Could you still do extract, or would you do all grain?
Is there used equipment available, and could you even brew enough "basement style" to open a small place?
You always hear how Jim Koch (Sam Adams) and Dan Kenneary (Harpoon) basically started in their garage.

[2pigs]

Wow you could write a book on those questions. I looked into that for the hell of it a while ago.

First, from what I have found most breweries are all grain.
Second, There is used equiptment available, it would all depend on how big you wanted to start.

Finally, its a huge financial risk to start a brewery, but if you have the right investors its possible. Jim Koch (Sam Adams) and Dan Kenneary (Harpoon) started breweries not brew pubs which is a whole different ball game.

[corkybstewart]

Unfortunately you have to have an inspected and approved brewing facility before you get your license so you really can't sell your"basement" brew to get started and expand as you go. Figure $200K to get started. But it can be done. But think about this. The reason you can find so much used equipment is because of all the micro breweries that go under every year. They may make great beer but the business end of it kills them.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
They may make great beer but the business end of it kills them.

Unfortunately, this can be said of any business. Most people are long on talent and short on business skills. Operating a business alone is tough enough, then when you toss on governing regulations, inspections, licensing, permits, anal probes, and most importantly the IRS, things can get sticky in a hurry.

[Chubber]

Check out these videos:

http://www.krotchrott.com/videoframe.html

Go to the bottom and look for the Frankebrew videos, 6 of them. How to start a microbrewery on less than $20,000.

And I will second the idea that you want to start a brewery, not a brew pub. Unless you love running a restaurant more than making beer that is.

[PsychoBrew]

I have also entertained the thought of starting a small brewery/ pub and figured it to be a great family business, but the wife and I have already owned an Italian restaurant and you can work yourself into the ground. There are many things to consider in such a business venture - if you are seriously entertaining the thought then research, research, and then research some more. You can never do too much investigation into a business venture.
As for myself I need to perfect my beer recipes first and heck that could take me the rest of my life :p

[B_rad1969]

Me too. That's my goal. I thought about the extract stuff, but it's too expensive.

[Helium]

I guess the idea behind a brewpup vs. a brewery is that I've always wanted to own a pub, but in MA, it's easier to get a license to sell your own beer, as it's a food product, rather than getting a license to sell someone else's alcohol product.
All you need then is a few brews and some easy pub food like burgers and wings.

As for the used stuff, wouldn't some of it be from breweries that are upgrading to larger equipment, and thus, growing vs. shutting down?

And how much more complicated would doing an actual brewery be? You've got the beer, but getting it into stores and bars is a nightmare.
In MA you even need a seperate license just to transport it in a truck, even if you're shopping it around.

[Vienna Lager]

Central Waters, which is about 10 miles from where I live was started by two guys that home brewed. They first used an old bulk milk holding tank for a mash tun and started just selling their beer in kegs to be served in bars, then went to bottles.

A couple years ago the owners were faced with the decision to either be content with local distribution or to go state wide. The added manpower and marketing was a nightmare so the owners sold the whole she-bang to three fellows that had also started out as home brewers while going to the University of Wisconsin.

Currently they have a brew pub in Marshfield WI and are completing a new $500,000 brewery in Amherst Junction WI.

Oh forgot to mention their Bourbon Barrel Cherry Stout (in cat. 12) took gold at GABF this year.

[corkybstewart]

It sounds easy to just have a few pub snacks like wings and burgers but state and local regulations concerning food preparation can be enormous. My mother tried to start a catering business alongside her wedding business and the 3 inch thick book of regulations was too much for her so she abandoned that. But some locales are easier to work with than others so check your local situation.

[Vienna Lager]

Like Corky said the 3" thick book of regulations can be daunting which is usually what the people who authored the book want.

The regulator/inspectors don't want more bars hence more inspections and work for themselves. They want to sit back and relax. The best way to do that is to make people jump through so may hoops that they get frustrated with the whole process and give up. Instead of saying a simple sentence like 'Don't dump raw sewage within 200' feet of an open water way.' They take a whole page to say the same thing.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Helium
I guess the idea behind a brewpup vs. a brewery is that I've always wanted to own a pub, but in MA, it's easier to get a license to sell your own beer, as it's a food product, rather than getting a license to sell someone else's alcohol product.
All you need then is a few brews and some easy pub food like burgers and wings.

As for the used stuff, wouldn't some of it be from breweries that are upgrading to larger equipment, and thus, growing vs. shutting down?

And how much more complicated would doing an actual brewery be? You've got the beer, but getting it into stores and bars is a nightmare.
In MA you even need a seperate license just to transport it in a truck, even if you're shopping it around.

If you haven't already, grab a copy of Sam Calagione's "Brewing up a Business". It might answer some of your start-up & growth questions:

Brewing up a business (http://www.amazon.com/Brewing-Up-Business-Adventures-Entrepreneurship/dp/0471708682/sr=8-1/qid=1160668776/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2360300-5956131?ie=UTF8&s=books)

Can also be bought at the online DFH store, autographed no less:

DFH Store (http://store.dogfish.com/store.cfm/books_by_dogfish_founder_sam_calagione.html)

Many breweries buy equipment from failed former breweries (the Hops chain hasn't done so well in NE and have provided equipment to a few others). Also, the dairy, soda and food manufacturing industries often have used equipment that can be modified to fit a brewery's needs.

Do sales reps. really need a special license to do sales calls, provide samples, do in store tastings, etc.? If you're self-distributing (very few do), you're already covered, but I wasn't aware of this.

Cheers!

[Mad Scientist]

The food side is what usually kills any brew pub, which is why when I win the lottery, I'll just open a craft brewery.

Alcohol rules vary by state, so as far as liscensing to do a tasting, pass out samples, etc, you'd have to figure that out. Even distribution varies by state.

BTW: There is a website out there that sells brewery equipment, I'll find it again if someone is really interested.

[B_rad1969]

http://www.nabrewing.com/

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by B_rad1969
http://www.nabrewing.com/

Yup, that's the one.

[newportstorm]

Probrewer.com also has a classified section with equipment for sale or sought:

http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=26

Cheers!

[Chubber]

Originally posted by B_rad1969
http://www.nabrewing.com/

Cool stuff there, but his prices seem a little steep. Stainless is expensive, but Ill bet you could have someone build a lot of the stuff locally for less than it would cost you to import it from Canada and ship it where you need.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
The food side is what usually kills any brew pub, which is why when I win the lottery, I'll just open a craft brewery.

from what I heard, the food side is what floats a brewpub (given the food is good). Most people are looking for a good place to eat, not necessarily a place with great beer.

This is why when I open my brewpub, I'm going to hire a good head chef who can handle the kitchen and free me up to handle the brew.

[Chubber]

Originally posted by HogieWan
from what I heard, the food side is what floats a brewpub (given the food is good). Most people are looking for a good place to eat, not necessarily a place with great beer.


But the profit margin on liquor is between 2 and 3 times the profit margin on food. So a guy who orders a $4 beer and a $8 plate is making more money for the owner on the one beer. And it is easier to prepare, hold for long periods, less waste in the production and no need to provide all of the disposables like plates and the like. Just glassware, some coasters or napkins and a friendly bartender.

But first you have to get thirsty butts into the seats, and that is the hardest part. The competition is stiff. Anytime the competition is that stiff, you know there is money to be made if you have a good gimmick.

[MeridianFC]

If you really want to open a brewery of any sort try this as an execise: for the next 6 months brew the same two beers at least 3 times a week. For extra points they should come out exactly (or very, very close) the same each time. While doing that read, understand, and be able to recall the pertininet details of your local, state, and national alcohol regs. In that time come up with a basic business plan. If you can do that and not go insane you might be ready to seriously think about undertaking this venture.

As fate would have it I've been reviewing just the DC ABRA Title 25 regs. I'm ready to chew my eyelids off and I'm already familiar with it from my days as a manager of a licensed establishment here. I was going to post just the definitions page but it's too f'in long.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Chubber


But first you have to get thirsty butts into the seats, and that is the hardest part. The competition is stiff. Anytime the competition is that stiff, you know there is money to be made if you have a good gimmick.

In my town there really wouldn't be any competition from other bars, there are only a couple. Our police are very strict about DWI and since all the bars are concentrated in one area(by law) the best bars have folded-people are afraid to go out and have 3 or 4 beers and drive home. There's no public transportation either. A buddy of mine decided not to risk driving, so he walked home and got arrested a block from his house for public intoxication. We went to a bar here 4 years ago for a retirement party, that's the last time.

[B_rad1969]

Cops suck. If ya aren't driving or causing trouble leave the walkers alone. He probably would have made it home safe if he drove.:rolleyes:

Open a strip/Brew pub and serve some food. Lots of beer drinkin' guys!

[Mad Scientist]

In TX, you cannot get a P.I. if there is not public transportation available.....when I lived in Alpine, it made staggering home a very (legally) safe means to get home as long as you were not making a pest of yourself. And in other experience, as long as you are not being a pest, and you explain (slurr....:D) that you had the option of driving, you can generally get a ride home as long as it is not far.

[B_rad1969]

Cops make good Taxi's..... If you happen to be going to jail!

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
In TX, you cannot get a P.I. if there is not public transportation available.....when I lived in Alpine, it made staggering home a very (legally) safe means to get home as long as you were not making a pest of yourself. And in other experience, as long as you are not being a pest, and you explain (slurr....:D) that you had the option of driving, you can generally get a ride home as long as it is not far.

Yup, I've been so drunk I couldn't find my ass with both hands and the cops just left me alone walking from a friends after a night of drinking. If I had been falling down drunk, I'm sure I could have got a ride.

[Mad Scientist]

Might also be a good time to point out that with having a brew pub, intoxicated patrons is an issue you have to worry about....

[Chubber]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
Might also be a good time to point out that with having a brew pub, intoxicated patrons is an issue you have to worry about....

As long as they don't get so drunk that they give their money to someone else, what problem do you have?

A tavern keeper can usually deal with a problem customer by promising a free pint to anyone that wants to help remove said problematic patron from the premises.

[corkybstewart]

Unfortunately Chubber, there's more to it. A bar, and it's employees, can be held liable for damages if a customer gets drunk and then kills or injures someone in a wreck. Serving an intoxicated person is illegal, whether the person is visibly intoxicated or not. With the lower limits on DWI, you're pushing the limit if you serve a customer more than 2 pints in an hour. In Texas recently TATF agents have actually been arrresting bar patrons still in the bar. There was an uproar over people in a hotel bar being arrested, not for misconduct but just for being intoxicated.
When I open my brewery it'll have to be bottles which cuts the profit, or I'll move to France and open a brewpub/taco stand in my wifes town.

[Chubber]

Originally posted by corkybstewart

When I open my brewery it'll have to be bottles which cuts the profit, or I'll move to France and open a brewpub/taco stand in my wifes town.

I guess my small-town genesis is evident. Problems get solved very differently in smaller towns.

Why bottles? You could keg from firkins to full kegs. Most breweries don't bottle at first just because of the expense of the machines and storage issues at bars. A bar needs a lot more refridgeration space to store 10 cases than 2 kegs.

Are tacos big in France? I thought everyone ate Falafel?
:D

[Chubber]

Originally posted by B_rad1969
Cops make good Taxi's..... If you happen to be going to jail!

Pizza delivery guys make better taxis. Just walk in, order a pizza for delivery, and give the guy $5 tip to drive you home. You get a warm pie, a cheap ride and you get home quickly.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Chubber
Are tacos big in France? I thought everyone ate Falafel?
:D
Mexican food is becoming more and more popular over there, and also there are lots of Damn Yankee American tourists in her area.
One thing about French people and Mexican food is that there are only 2 kinds of people: those who can't even stand black pepper and those who can eat the spiciest food I can cook. There's nothing in between.
The American style brewpub is just getting started in Europe also so I see some real potential over there that I don't see here anymore.

[Mad Scientist]

And europeans are far more realistic and reasonable about drinking.....

[denver brewhoo]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
If you really want to open a brewery of any sort try this as an execise: for the next 6 months brew the same two beers at least 3 times a week. For extra points they should come out exactly (or very, very close) the same each time. While doing that read, understand, and be able to recall the pertininet details of your local, state, and national alcohol regs. In that time come up with a basic business plan. If you can do that and not go insane you might be ready to seriously think about undertaking this venture.

As fate would have it I've been reviewing just the DC ABRA Title 25 regs. I'm ready to chew my eyelids off and I'm already familiar with it from my days as a manager of a licensed establishment here. I was going to post just the definitions page but it's too f'in long.

[denver brewhoo]

oops don't know how I did that. Guess I just wanted to repeat what Meridian said for emphasis.

Since I'm not gonna do it now, I'll reveal that I too spent about six weeks reviewing the DC code sections that applied, looked at properties etc. I'll just say I think there's a reason why there are, what, four brewpubs in the District (I'm thinking Rock Bottom, two Cap Cities and Gordon Biersch, maybe I left something out...) and something like 65 in Colorado, and IMHO the reason is, at least in part, legislative and administrative friendliness....I'm still waiting for my first return phone call or acknowledgment of receipt of my letters, from ABRA or DC Zoning, for example...

I also scoured the local alternative weeklies like CityPaper and DCNorth and the other local papers and found there seems to be a sort of running war betweeen local churches and neighborhood associations on one side, and any sort of alcohol-related business, on the other...

Interesting climate--at leat it thins out the competition! In the immortal words of Billy Clyde Puckett, "If it was easy I guess everybody'd be doing it."

good luck, Kelly.

[corkybstewart]

Originally posted by Boerne Brew
And europeans are far more realistic and reasonable about drinking.....
And they have an awful lot of very good beer and wine, especially compared to Carlsbad.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
And they have an awful lot of very good beer and wine, especially compared to Carlsbad.

and Midland

[dparsons]

I thought some time ago that you should not do your favorite hobby for a living. It can kill the enjoyment of your hobby. Pick your 3rd or 4th favorite thing and leave the best for doing on your own terms.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by dparsons
I thought some time ago that you should not do your favorite hobby for a living. It can kill the enjoyment of your hobby. Pick your 3rd or 4th favorite thing and leave the best for doing on your own terms.

Wise advice. I've tried to make a business around, or at least cover my expenses with two of my hobbies and the attempts failed miserably because when I turned what was once enjoyable into "work" it ceased being fun. Now I keep my work - still something I enjoy doing, but work none-the-less - separate from all hobbys and things I do strictly for enjoyment or relaxation.

[Mad Scientist]

Yeah, but this would not (atleast presently) be my primary income source....

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Well you can't fault him for his determination