GABF winners - too many macroswills

[dparsons]

I looked as the GABF prize winners
http://www.realbeer.com/news/articles/news-003006.php

I couldn't believe the number of prizes given to macro swill. OK, so they are all in American Lager type styles, but there were still between 19 and 29 entrants in each category! I didn't find out who the other entrants were.

I've thought of a few possibilities as to why this might be:

1) The macros bought and paid for the wins beforehand.

2) These are beer categories that either no one else is allowed into, or no one else will participate in.

3) The macros make actual beer just for the contest.

4) The style is defined by what the macros are, and try as they might the craft brewing industry is not able to make beers that taste quite so ... ____.


I'm actually a little embarassed that Pabst Blue Ribbon, Old Milwaukee Light won gold as the best in America. The stuff tastes like ____ and this country gives it a gold!!??

*The ____ indicates that there is no appropriate printable word, so each individual may interpret it accordingly. ____ is not necessarily swearing.

[Jeff]

Check out BJCP.org, page 1 of the style guidelines. If you read the guidelines for the American lager and light American lager you will see that BMC match it pretty well. It is a style many of us do not like, but it is still a style. Most craft breweries don't waste there time trying to match these styles. Anybody that is buying craft beer is not really looking for something to match BMC.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dparsons

1) The macros bought and paid for the wins beforehand.


Insulting to the integrity of Charlie Papazian, founder of the GABF & president of the Brewers Association.

Originally posted by dparsons

2) These are beer categories that either no one else is allowed into, or no one else will participate in.


Nope. Some brewpubs make a light(er) lager beer for newbies or to keep from serving others' beer at their pub. They most likely have no interest in and/or the time & money to submit an entry. The large brewers do, hence their medals.

Originally posted by dparsons

3) The macros make actual beer just for the contest.


Possible. Some craft breweries also do this. But most of these medal winners are tried and true stalwarts in the big brewers' portfolios.

Originally posted by dparsons

4) The style is defined by what the macros are, and try as they might the craft brewing industry is not able to make beers that taste quite so ... ____.


First part is probably very true. But many craft breweries, by intent or by accident, make some horrible tasting dreck. Bad beer knows no boundaries.

There were over 60 categories being judged at the GABF. Don't focus on the handful you find offensive.

Cheers!

[steveh]

Michelob Marzen?

S.

[kinjar]

Originally posted by steveh
Michelob Marzen?

S.

I had it last year. Having tried all three that medaled, I would have ranked OD the gold, SA the silver, and Michelob bronze.

It really wasn't bad.

[denver brewhoo]

Originally posted by kinjar
I had it last year. Having tried all three that medaled, I would have ranked OD the gold, SA the silver, and Michelob bronze.

It really wasn't bad.

OK here's where i talk outta my *ss, coz I wasn't there this year.

Disclaimer out of the way, I WAS there last year, and while the Michelob Marzenthey served last year was a very nice beer FOR THEM.....I have a hard time with the proposition that last year's model was a (under BJCP standards) medal-quality marzen/octoberfest.

Specifically I thought the carbonation was excessive; I thought while nicely malty vs other AB products it fell short of that creamy melanoidy feeling I get from classic marzens like Spaten or Paulaner or Hacker Pschorr. And while hops aren't supposed to predominate, those beers have a cognizable noble hop presence in flavor and aroma, and a recognizable if certainly not overwhelming bitterness, all of which I thought the 2005 Michelob Marzen missed.

In short it was, to paraphrase an old advertisement from a competitor of theirs, "everything you ever wanted in a Marzen-- only less"

Perhaps it improved over the intervening period. But I noted in some categories the GABF only presented two medals. If the Michelob Marzen was the third best marzen at this festival (and making the above acknowledged unsupportable assumption that it was the same as the 2005 edition they handed out last year)---then perhaps they shouldn't have given a bronze at all.

Having said that, kudos to them for getting their feet wet. (They also got a silver last year IIRC for an English-style pale ale category, to similar complaints. As it happened I felt the same about that beer as i did about the marzen--a good beer but not a great one, somehow an ALMOST successful compromise between pleasing the masses and trying to make a true english special bitter)

[steveh]

Having not sampled the Mich Marzen in quite some time, but coming to the same opinion as Brewhoo when compared to a true Marzen style (something we have discussed in many threads that even the best Micros, with attention to detail, fall short on), I really have to wonder who the judges were (this is historically a blind judging), and if there are too many judges just not versed on some of the lesser brewed styles.

Even with the 3 beers in the German-Style Märzen/Oktoberfest category, and 42 others entered, I know there had to be ONE other better-to-style beer in the bunch. Hell, I've sampled 6 different American Micro Oktos that I'd stand above the Mich and 4 I'd place above even Sam!

I think it's down to the misinterpretation of the style we've also discussed. If anyone can find either Lake Front's or Bell's Okto on tap, give them a try - they're getting much closer to German-style Marzen than I've ever tasted in an American beer before.

S.

[MikShau]

Did I see Red Dog as a gold medal winner? Never knew my alcoholic friends had such good taste.

Lets see if they come out with a can where the dogs collar has a gold medal on it.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
Having not sampled the Mich Marzen in quite some time, but coming to the same opinion as Brewhoo when compared to a true Marzen style (something we have discussed in many threads that even the best Micros, with attention to detail, fall short on), I really have to wonder who the judges were (this is historically a blind judging), and if there are too many judges just not versed on some of the lesser brewed styles.

Even with the 3 beers in the German-Style Märzen/Oktoberfest category, and 42 others entered, I know there had to be ONE other better-to-style beer in the bunch. Hell, I've sampled 6 different American Micro Oktos that I'd stand above the Mich and 4 I'd place above even Sam!

I think it's down to the misinterpretation of the style we've also discussed. If anyone can find either Lake Front's or Bell's Okto on tap, give them a try - they're getting much closer to German-style Marzen than I've ever tasted in an American beer before.

S.

Fests that award medals do the best with what they have on hand. I'm sure there may be better examples of Marzen out there than Michelob, and I'm sure many of us have tried them. But, were they at the GABF? Dunno.

What I do know, is if we all tried to sit down and blindly judge dozens of beers from a particular style, the results might surprise us. And I mean truly blind, as in you've NO idea which beers are even on hand. No seeing labels beforehand. No knowledge whatsoever, other than what style you are tasting/judging. Label/name recognition alone can boost/lower a beer's score in many cases, imo.

Also, keep in mind that the judges are human (at least I hope they are). Their individual tastes will prevail, regardless of what narrow style guidlelines tell them. If for example, Spaten Ofest was thought of as the benchmark of the style, then it would stand to reason that Spaten would never have to change a thing. Just enter the beer into a competition and win gold, every time. After all, they're the benchmark.

Styles evolve. Tastes change and come into play. It's far from an exact science, which is why it leads to some interesting discussions. Beer and competitions would be rather boring otherwise.

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Fests that award medals do the best with what they have on hand.

But this is the GABF -- the grand-daddy. All the sanctioned judges should have been clammoring. Or maybe not.

S.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Insulting to the integrity of Charlie Papazian, founder of the GABF & president of the Brewers Association.


Of course I wouldn't insult Charlie or what he has accomplished. That was not the intent. I was surprised by the macro wins and included a list of possibilities, however real or ridiculous I thought they might be, as long as it was a possible explanation. Buying wins in contests has happened a few times in the history of the world so I included it.

You also might note the subtle (or not) note of sarcasm/humor in parts my post. My humor can be dry and doesn't always come out clearly in typed posts.

Even though this event is associated with Charlie, it is still possbile to bribe or influence judges. This is the big, important competition. If there is any beer contest in which there is pressure to win, it is here.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by Jeff
Check out BJCP.org, page 1 of the style guidelines. If you read the guidelines for the American lager and light American lager you will see that BMC match it pretty well. It is a style many of us do not like, but it is still a style. Most craft breweries don't waste there time trying to match these styles. Anybody that is buying craft beer is not really looking for something to match BMC.

Reading the actual descriptions, I think you are right. They don't sound appealing and I wouldn't choose to make something to fit that description. That is option 4).

I'm still puzzled as the macros I've had not only have the mild flavors described, but have flavors that I would take as bad or off flavors. I note on the 1C. Premium American Lagers that (green apples, DMS, or fruitiness) are acceptable flavors! To my understanding, these flavors are NOT desireable. For example, the "Green Apple" flavor indicates "that the beer is too young and needs more time to condition" according to Palmer. In this case I would disagree with the style guidelines and say that they need to be altered to represent to best of the style, not what exists because some $ oriented company rushes to get its product to market rather than letting it age and reach a quality flavor and because it has been accepted by the general public because they don't know any better.

[dparsons]

Pardon my previous rant. I hate to see garbage given a gold medal that represents the country's best.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
But this is the GABF -- the grand-daddy. All the sanctioned judges should have been clammoring. Or maybe not.

S.

I was referring to the beers on hand, not the judges.

Cheers!

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by dparsons
Pardon my previous rant. I hate to see garbage given a gold medal that represents the country's best.

While this is an "old" competition with history and prestige in winning, it is hardly all encompassing or limited to the best we have to offer here in the US.

Many breweries don't have the time or interest in submitting an entry. Some breweries just don't hang their hat on winning medals. Some brewers actually just enjoy making great beer for their local/regional customers. There are some very accomplished brewers that could probably medal in several categories but only enter under one.

Again, it's a great competition and showcases some fabulous beer, but it not the be all, end all to great beer in America.

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
I was referring to the beers on hand, not the judges.

Okay, I'd buy that - but Mich Marzen -- number 2 out of 45 entries in the category? I guess I'll have to look for a single bottle somewhere to make a judgement call.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

warning, thread drift:

what do you think of the WINNER, steveh? I have had two or three Sam Adams Oktos this year and have found them to lack the malty sweetness I associate with this style, and to be a little grainy/husky.

I got a similar flavor from a CB & Potts Oktoberfest last night, and to me it is definitely NOT optimally to style. In my homebrewing I have gotten these flavors with cheaper malts ground a little fine, which certainly increases efficiency but.....

But i defer to your taste buds on these matters, & I always find your thoughts on lagers in general and munich styles in particular, persuasive and informative, so.....

what say you re Sam's Octoberfest?

[hops99]

Many breweries don't have the time or interest in submitting an entry.

That's a great point. Personally, I don't take much stock in the GABF competition. A great festival for sure, but there's still only a fraction of all the U.S. breweries represented each year.

[corkybstewart]

I bought a sixer of SA Octoberfest this past week. Man was I disappointed. I don't have a lot of experience with the style but I don't think I noticed any difference between the Octo and SA Boston Lager, nothing except the label.

[fretlessman71]

Funny - I enjoyed the bottle of SA Okto I had last week. Of course, I like SA Boston Lager as well, but I didn't think they were identical. I will say, however, that if you're not using realy pilsner or munich malt from Europe, it's just not the same to me. Paulaner and Spaten will forever be my Oktos of choice, no matter HOW good the Americans get at it. We make plenty of fantastic beer as it is - we don't need to be perfect with EVERY style!

[steveh]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
what do you think of the WINNER, steveh? I have had two or three Sam Adams Oktos this year and have found them to lack the malty sweetness I associate with this style, and to be a little grainy/husky.

I've had the Sam Okto in bottle and on draft this year and don't find it too bad, considering very few American Micros reproduce this style well anyway.

I thought it was actually pretty balanced between malts and hops, without the malts being terribly sweet. On the other hand, it lacks the complex richness a Spaten or Paulaner has, probably due to the age-old tradition at these breweries of double-decoction mashing to bring out all of the flavor of good Munich malt.

Then there's just that, good Munich malt. Once again, I doubt there are many micros using imported malts from Bavaria, and that makes a big difference in acheiving that rich, toasty melanoidin flavor.

As I said, I'd place Bell's and Lake Front's Okto offering above Sam and Mich. Haven't had the chance to try the Old Dominion.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
While this is an "old" competition with history and prestige in winning, it is hardly all encompassing or limited to the best we have to offer here in the US.

Many breweries don't have the time or interest in submitting an entry. Some breweries just don't hang their hat on winning medals. Some brewers actually just enjoy making great beer for their local/regional customers. There are some very accomplished brewers that could probably medal in several categories but only enter under one.

Again, it's a great competition and showcases some fabulous beer, but it not the be all, end all to great beer in America.

Cheers!

If you don't have the "time or interest" to enter the GABF, in my opinion, you are not a serious brewer. If you don't have the time or interest to showcase your product on the biggest of stages, I would have to question your priorities. Why WOULDN'T a brewery enter this competition? It is the most prestigious beer event in the U.S., with significant opportunity for publicity and increased sales if you're able to take home an award.

While not EVERY brewery is represented, to say that the GABF is "hardly all encompassing" is not giving the GABF its due. You say it's not the "be all, end all to great beer in America". Well if it's not that, it's damn close.

That said, from what I have seen, the judging is secondary to the assemblage. Big breweries find a way to win something every year, and whether that's because they offer bribe money or legit support to the festival organizers I know not. What I do know is that at the end of the day, as a beer drinker it doesn't matter that much who wins. When I have walked out of the festival having tasted the best beer the U.S. has to offer, I have been happy guy. :D

[ratman03]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
I bought a sixer of SA Octoberfest this past week. Man was I disappointed. I don't have a lot of experience with the style but I don't think I noticed any difference between the Octo and SA Boston Lager, nothing except the label.

See, this is where a direct side-by-side comparison is useful. Most likely you would be able to tell the difference if they were lined up next to each other, because they are completely different beers. The Octoberfest lacks the famous spicy flavor of the Lager, and the malt tastes different. I had the SA Octoberfest on tap recently, and I thought it was ok this year.

I have been drinking the Ayinger Oktoberfest lately, and it is very tasty.

[steveh]

I missed Fret's comment about not tasting any difference between the 2 brews - Ratman is so right Fret, try 'em side-by-side, hugely different.

BTW - does anyone know where we can find a list of all the entrants? Specifically, in this case, the Marzen/Oktos?

S.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
If you don't have the "time or interest" to enter the GABF, in my opinion, you are not a serious brewer. If you don't have the time or interest to showcase your product on the biggest of stages, I would have to question your priorities. Why WOULDN'T a brewery enter this competition? It is the most prestigious beer event in the U.S., with significant opportunity for publicity and increased sales if you're able to take home an award.

Sorry, but that's laughable. Dedicating yourself to brewing great tasting, high quality beer for your customers isn't enough to qualify someone as a "serious brewer"? Only those who make time to brew, keg, bottle, prep, ship and spend $$ to enter a competition are "serious"?

Might be news to you, but not every brewer in America needs a medal to validate their talent. Not every brewery and brewpub in America has the need or desire for wide publicity and/or increased sales at the expense of a national competition. Many brewers are quite happy brewing beer for their local/regional loyalists and would rather attend smaller, more local fests, building a fan base through word of mouth.

Originally posted by ratman03

While not EVERY brewery is represented, to say that the GABF is "hardly all encompassing" is not giving the GABF its due. You say it's not the "be all, end all to great beer in America". Well if it's not that, it's damn close.

You've just contradicted yourself. You admit that not every brewery (not even a fraction of the beers in the US, actually) is present. Therefore, no, it is not all-encompassing and I've given the GABF it's just due. It's a great competition, but is but a snapshot of the beers that are present that year.

And after learning a bit about the judging process, it's far from perfect. Think....jury style. One hard-ass can make deliberating miserable, so that people eventually "settle" on a few winners - sometimes, the least controversial beers in the lot.

Originally posted by ratman03

That said, from what I have seen, the judging is secondary to the assemblage. Big breweries find a way to win something every year, and whether that's because they offer bribe money or legit support to the festival organizers I know not. What I do know is that at the end of the day, as a beer drinker it doesn't matter that much who wins. When I have walked out of the festival having tasted the best beer the U.S. has to offer, I have been happy guy. :D

So, if what you're saying is true - that big brewers can essentially buy medals, the judging is secondary and if doesn't really matter who wins - how can you blame a brewery for not making the time or having the interest in submitting an entry? Why should they bother?

[steveh]

Originally posted by steveh
BTW - does anyone know where we can find a list of all the entrants? Specifically, in this case, the Marzen/Oktos?

A quick reply from the GABF and the Brewers Association:

"Hi Steven,
Unfortunately, we are not allowed to divulge the list of participants in each category. We keep all of the entries in each category confidential. I'm sorry we could not help with your request, but if you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask."

And now we know.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

Originally posted by steveh

BTW - does anyone know where we can find a list of all the entrants? Specifically, in this case, the Marzen/Oktos?

S.

not on the website.....but (I mentioned I didn't go this year) I was at my homebrew shop yesterday and the owner gave me a program so I'll have the info

except, as you may recall if you've been, the program does not list by style but by brewery so it'll take awhile to go through brewery by brewery and tick off 45, or whatever it was, octoberfests.

Flipping through it at the shop I realized that Michelob WON last year in this category as well as the English-Style Pale Ale, where I had thought they had silvers....

PS raters on other sites with palates I respect have given mad props to the Michelob's hefe, while remaining skeptical towards the marzen and the Pale. I gotta give that a try.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Sorry, but that's laughable. Dedicating yourself to brewing great tasting, high quality beer for your customers isn't enough to qualify someone as a "serious brewer"? Only those who make time to brew, keg, bottle, prep, ship and spend $$ to enter a competition are "serious"?

Serious about promoting their brand, yes. There are two kinds of people who brew "great tasting, high quality beer": Homebrewers and craft beer producers. If you are selling your beer, you are in business to make money.
It is advantageous for businesspeople to promote their product. And it's not a big deal -- there's no "prepping" and "bottling". You take a few kegs of beer you have on hand and fly to Denver for a few days. You don't have to make a special batch if you don't want to.

Might be news to you, but not every brewer in America needs a medal to validate their talent.

Apparently a lot of them do (see below). It's more about exposure than validation, though. People come from all over the U.S. to attend this event. If they like your beer, they're likely to tell others, and maybe post on internet forums like this one. If a brewer thinks his beer is excellent, why not get it recognized by peers and beer drinkers everywhere? You can ride a gold medal from the GABF a long way, not to mention the free publicity if you actually win. And if your beer is good, and you enter it year after year, you'll probably pick up a medal at some point.

You've just contradicted yourself. You admit that not every brewery (not even a fraction of the beers in the US, actually) is present. Therefore, no, it is not all-encompassing and I've given the GABF it's just due. It's a great competition, but is but a snapshot of the beers that are present that year.

You talk as if the GABF is a minor event that nobody pays attention to. It's not just another festival, it is THE festival. The event is huge, gets bigger every year, and it is significant in the industry. Here are some statistics from the 2005 GABF:

* 1,669 beers were on tap (215 more than 2004 and 400 more than in 2003). This was the largest array of beers ever at the GABF, and the Guinness World Record for most beers tapped at one location.
* 47 states were represented at the GABF (plus the District of Columbia). The only states not represented were Rhode Island, South Dakota and West Virginia.
* More than 380 U.S. breweries were serving beer.
o Over 29,500 beer enthusiasts from around the world attended the GABF.

# In 2004, 2,552 volunteers and 31,134 volunteer hours helped make the beer flow. Only the Rose Parade has more volunteers participating.


***A beer festival that attracts 1/3 of breweries in the U.S. is significant in my book.***



So, if what you're saying is true - that big brewers can essentially buy medals, the judging is secondary and if doesn't really matter who wins - how can you blame a brewery for not making the time or having the interest in submitting an entry? Why should they bother?

Read my post. I'm not saying anything is true in regard to the judging. I said I don't know. What I do know is that big beer companies are winning every year with what I and many consider to be inferior beer. Draw your own conclusions. As to why they should bother: They should bother because they are beer brewers, and this event is the biggest one of its kind in the country. If your goal as a brewer is to sell beer at your one brewpub location, then I see your point. But if you have aspirations beyond that and you're trying to grow your brand, you should be in Denver every year.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by steveh
A quick reply from the GABF and the Brewers Association:

"Hi Steven,
Unfortunately, we are not allowed to divulge the list of participants in each category. We keep all of the entries in each category confidential. I'm sorry we could not help with your request, but if you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask."

And now we know.

S.

Nice effort on the followup. I can see why they don't like to "divulge the list" prior to the competition, but this should be public info afterwards.

[denver brewhoo]

Brian Hunt at Moonlight may be America's greatest brewer...or he may not, but any of the five or six that you would name as nominees for that title, would probably name him in THEIR top 3, if asked.....

but he's an example of what newportstorm is trying to say, I think.

In any event he wouldn't, I believe, be caught dead at the GABF.

Chacun a son gout, and all....

[ratman03]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
Brian Hunt at Moonlight may be America's greatest brewer...or he may not, but any of the five or six that you would name as nominees for that title, would probably name him in THEIR top 3, if asked.....

but he's an example of what newportstorm is trying to say, I think.

In any event he wouldn't, I believe, be caught dead at the GABF.

Chacun a son gout, and all....

I checked out his website. He is a one man show, and he doesn't bottle. If his aim is to keep it low volume and local, then he probably doesn't need to be there. But why not go anyway?

My point is that the benefit of the GABF to the brewery is exposure. When Red Dog is taking home medals, we know we have to take the judging with a grain of salt!

[The Alchemist]

I find it hard to believe that the GABF doesn't release the names of the entrants. If anything this promotes people second-guessing judges decisions. People are going to do it anyhow, it's human nature. I am an unabashed lover of the German style of beers with Marzen/Octoberfest near or at the top of the list. Beyond the German imports of note that are available, I have found a few breweries in the US that produce this style well. I am not saying they are better than what others may produce to an individuals own liking, but they are more like the original German style.(Which is more to my liking.) Since I am not a judge, I don't know what they look for, but I find it hard to believe that either Michelob Marzen or SA Octoberfest are in the top three. But, that's just my opinion.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
Serious about promoting their brand, yes. There are two kinds of people who brew "great tasting, high quality beer": Homebrewers and craft beer producers. If you are selling your beer, you are in business to make money.


There are other (and probably cheaper) ways of promoting your brand.

Originally posted by ratman03

You talk as if the GABF is a minor event that nobody pays attention to. It's not just another festival, it is THE festival. The event is huge, gets bigger every year, and it is significant in the industry. Here are some statistics from the 2005 GABF:

***A beer festival that attracts 1/3 of breweries in the U.S. is significant in my book.***


Never said it was a minor event. I said it's a great event. Maybe THE festival, but still only showcases a fraction of great beer available. It would never and could never contain it all.

And at last count there were over 1400 breweries in the US. 380 is about 1/4, not 1/3. Still a large percentage but hardly the majority.

Originally posted by ratman03
Read my post. I'm not saying anything is true in regard to the judging. I said I don't know. What I do know is that big beer companies are winning every year with what I and many consider to be inferior beer. Draw your own conclusions. As to why they should bother: They should bother because they are beer brewers, and this event is the biggest one of its kind in the country. If your goal as a brewer is to sell beer at your one brewpub location, then I see your point. But if you have aspirations beyond that and you're trying to grow your brand, you should be in Denver every year.

You won't directly call the judging into question yet claim inferior beer is winning a blind competition. What conclusion would you take from that?

It's a great festival. Many brewers can and do attend it and benefit from it. But it's not for everyone - even some "serious" brewers.

Cheers!

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm




You won't directly call the judging into question yet claim inferior beer is winning a blind competition. What conclusion would you take from that?

Cheers!

What I take from it is that the judging is suspect.

I think they spread it around so a lot of people can win.
That way breweries have the hope of taking home a medal each year, and will continue to attend. No sense in having the same great beers win every year.

As I beer drinker, I don't really care who wins. The exception is when the macros make a BS attempt at an entry and walk away with a medal over more deserving entrants. I don't know why this happens but it does happen every year.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by ratman03
If you don't have the "time or interest" to enter the GABF, in my opinion, you are not a serious brewer. If you don't have the time or interest to showcase your product on the biggest of stages, I would have to question your priorities. Why WOULDN'T a brewery enter this competition? It is the most prestigious beer event in the U.S., with significant opportunity for publicity and increased sales if you're able to take home an award.

I'm certain you can be quite serious about brewing good beer without wanting to have to worry about making it meet certain specific guidelines, packing it up, spending a bundle of money to get to the competition, working long days, and then having your beer's success depend on the tastebuds of a few individuals. I've been in a competition circuit (not in brewing) and it puts its own grueling overhead on what you are doing. It certainly takes more time and $ and can take the enjoyment of the event away if you aren't careful.

I do agree with you about the marketing opportunity. I'm sure that at least influenced a lot of the breweries that go.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by steveh
A quick reply from the GABF and the Brewers Association:

"Hi Steven,
Unfortunately, we are not allowed to divulge the list of participants in each category. We keep all of the entries in each category confidential. I'm sorry we could not help with your request, but if you have anymore questions, please feel free to ask."

And now we know.

S.

I suppose if you lose, you'd rather not have your name published.

[dparsons]

[i]Flipping through it at the shop I realized that Michelob WON last year in this category as well as the English-Style Pale Ale, where I had thought they had silvers....
[/B]

A guy I used to work with used to carry around a yellow, weighted flag like is used in football to flag penalties. He called it the "bulls#!t flag." If someone made too outrageous a claim, he'd throw down the flag. As in football, the referees could review the call before making it formal - and so we would do that.

Michelob won the English-Style Pale Ale and the Octoberfest? There is a yellow flag on the ground.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
What I take from it is that the judging is suspect.

I think they spread it around so a lot of people can win.
That way breweries have the hope of taking home a medal each year, and will continue to attend. No sense in having the same great beers win every year.

As I beer drinker, I don't really care who wins. The exception is when the macros make a BS attempt at an entry and walk away with a medal over more deserving entrants. I don't know why this happens but it does happen every year.

Here's the scoop as set forth by the Brewers Association and the GABF:

"The Great American Beer Festival invites industry professionals from around the world to sit together in small groups and, without knowing the brand name, taste beers in each specified style category....

Five different three-hour judging sessions take place during the three-day period during the week of the festival. Judges are assigned to evaluate beers in their specific area of expertise and never judge their own product or any product in which they have a concern."

It's blind judging. Judges are assigned to beer styles they are familiar with. Judges are not assigned to any of their own products. If they don't know whose beer they are judging, how can they be certain to "spread it around"?

By stating the things you have about suspect judging, inferior beers winning, supposed BS attempts by macrobrewers winning, etc. you're calling the judging a joke, fixed, tainted. If that's really the case, why would any brewery want to take home a medal from such an event? It's wouldn't be worth the metal it's made of.

Forget exposure - I agree that any brewery present gets exposure. Whether it's worth the price of the trip is debatable.

But as far as medals go...you don't care who wins, as long as they don't come from macrobrewers? When you attempt to judge a truly blind competition and have some insider info, feel free to criticize. Until then, might as well drop medals & winning from your discussion if you can't trust the judging.

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
By stating the things you have about suspect judging, inferior beers winning, supposed BS attempts by macrobrewers winning, etc. you're calling the judging a joke, fixed, tainted. If that's really the case, why would any brewery want to take home a medal from such an event? It's wouldn't be worth the metal it's made of.


Because at one time the distinction was a high honor - that's why all of the macros started getting involved, "We can't let these upstarts show that we can't make good beer!"

Through time and evolution, the judges and judging very well could have diminished in quality and expertise -- that is possible.

I have an acquaintance who is a top judge with the BJCP, I'm going to forward him this whole link and see if we can't get some insight.

S.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
Because at one time the distinction was a high honor - that's why all of the macros started getting involved, "We can't let these upstarts show that we can't make good beer!"

Through time and evolution, the judges and judging very well could have diminished in quality and expertise -- that is possible.

I have an acquaintance who is a top judge with the BJCP, I'm going to forward him this whole link and see if we can't get some insight.

S.

Fair enough.

If the judging is done properly - blindly, using people well-versed in the style at hand - and the macros still take home medals....few people will still give them credit but it might quiet some.

If the judging isn't up to snuff, it would confirm some suspicions here and confirm my feeling that many small breweries are justified in not spending time, $$ and effort on submitting and entry. Rather, focus on growing your brand locally, day in and day out.

Cheers!

[denver brewhoo]

Alphabetical order, beers that self identify as “Oktoberfest” or Marzen, or even have “fest” in their name, from GABF program 2006:

1. 75th Street Brewery……………….Hawktoberfest (maybe)
2. Abita Brewing Co…………………Fall Fest (?)
3. ANHEUSER-BUSCH…………….MICHELOB MARZEN (SILVER)
4. Atwater Block Brewery……………Bloktoberfest
5. Backcountry Brewery………………Oktoberfest
6. Back Street Brewery (Irvine)……….Oktober Fest
7. Barley Creek Brewery……………..Harvest Moon Oktoberfest
8. Beaver Street Brewery……………..Marzen
9. Blue Corn Brewery…………………Blue Corn Oktoberfest
10. Bluegrass Brewing Co……………...Oktoberfist (not a typo)
11. BOSTON BREWING CO………….SAMUEL ADAMS OCTOBERFEST (GOLD)
12. Capital Brewing Co…………………Octoberfest
13. Carolina Brewery……………………Oktoberfest
14. E.J. Phair Brewing Co...…………….E.J. Phair Oktoberfest
15. Elk Grove Brewery & Restaurant…...Marzen Lager
16. Flying Dog Brewing Co……………..Dogtoberfest
17. Foothills Brewing Co………………...Foothills Oktoberfest
18. Great Dane Pub & Brewing Co………Oktoberfest
19. Greenpoint Beer Works……………….Heartland Brewery Oktoberfest Lager
20. Ham’s Restaurant……………………...Oktoberfest
21. J.J. Bitting Brewing Co………………..Bad Boy Oktoberfest
22. Krebs Brewing Co…………………….Choctoberfest (probably not a marzen)
23. Lakefront Brewery…………………….Oktoberfest
24. Lefthand Brewing Co………………..Oktoberfest
25. Los Gatos Brewing Co……………….Oktoberfest
26. Maui Brewing Co…………………….Maui Oktoberfest
27. Moon River Brewing Co………………Savannah Fest Bier (maybe)
28. OLD DOMINION BREWING CO……DOMINION OKTOBERFEST (BRONZE)
29. Pennsylvania Brewing Co……………...Penn Oktoberfest
30. Rock Bottom Brewery (Bethesda)……..Rocktoberfest
31. Rockyard American Grill & Brewing Co………Oktoberfest
32. Sacket’s Harbor Brewing Co…………..Ontario Oktoberfest
33. Saint Arnold Brewing Co………………Saint Arnold Oktoberfest
34. Schooner’s Grille & Brewery…………...Oktoberfest
35. Silver City Brewing Co…………………Oktoberfest
36. Sprecher brewing Co……………………Oktoberfest
37. Upland Brewing Co…………………….Upland Oktoberfest


That’s it, though there are 65 “judge only” breweries that didn’t come and thus don’t have their offerings in the program.

[denver brewhoo]

Originally posted by newportstorm

By stating the things you have about suspect judging, inferior beers winning, supposed BS attempts by macrobrewers winning, etc. you're calling the judging a joke, fixed, tainted. If that's really the case, why would any brewery want to take home a medal from such an event? It's wouldn't be worth the metal it's made of



I will say this. The program lists the judges and it's a freakin' "who's who." Every hip, cool, beloved-by-beer-geek brewery you can think of seemed to have a representative. As weird as it seems to us as micro-lovers that Michelob Marzen got gold last year and silver this year, I for one would not match my palate against very many of the names I read, and I don't think with that number of people, and people of KNOWN integrity, that any rigging is even possible.

I'm thinking we're just gonna have to get over this, and deal.

[denver brewhoo]

and now, after a word from Flying Dog, I'm out (ps, check the e-bay links, they're excellent:

Flying Dog Brewery Claims Gold Medal for Best Party

Denver based brewery has customers thank them for an epic Beer Festival After Party by leaving a cup of recycled Flying Dog, panties and someone’s virginity.

DENVER, Colo. (October 5, 2006) – As the Great American Beer Festival wrapped on September 30th , we here at Flying Dog Brewery realized there was one award that had been overlooked. We are sure this oversight was unintentional but we felt compelled to take action. So, we got some yarn and foil and fashioned ourselves a well-deserved Gold Medal in the category of “Best Party”.

As other breweries were celebrating winning Mid-size Brewing Company of the Year on Saturday night for impressing the judges, we were busy celebrating with our loyal drinkers. We opened our downtown brewery to 800 rabid Flying Dog fans over Friday and Saturday night and threw down like only The People’s Republic of Flying Dog can. A still drunken Evan Hughes Sales Director of Draft Magazine professed the morning after, “I hate you guys.” We take that as a compliment.

Like any good party, we still have a few casualties of war lying around the brewery. So, if anyone is missing a pair of black panties, a cup of recycled Flying Dog, or left their virginity in our make-out room, please check out our eBay auctions at the following link to get your shit back: panties, recycled Flying Dog, virginity

Although we failed to duplicate our success of 3 GABF medals from 2005 we did walk away with GABF Bronze for In-Heat Wheat and the aforementioned Gold Medal in the category of Best Party. This might bother other breweries but at Flying Dog we think that if Mickey’s Malt Liquor can walk away with a medal then we’re not going to fret over our kick-ass, litter of ales performance.


Panties
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... 0038442092

Recycled Flying Dog
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... 0038445762

Virginity
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d ... 0038449416

[hops99]

I will say this. The program lists the judges and it's a freakin' "who's who."

That's what I was thinking. Off the top of my head, Lew Bryson and Garret Oliver are/were two of the judges this year that I know of; claiming that the competition is "rigged" knowing guys like that are blind judging, is not only ridiculous but completely irresponsible.

[HogieWan]

links don't work . . .

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hops99
That's what I was thinking. Off the top of my head, Lew Bryson and Garret Oliver are/were two of the judges this year that I know of; claiming that the competition is "rigged" knowing guys like that are blind judging, is not only ridiculous but completely irresponsible.

Add Tomme Arthur and Michael Jackson as those who have faith in the organization and execution of the GABF.

http://babblebelt.com/bbb_classic/readarc.html?id=1159895531

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo

11. BOSTON BREWING CO………….SAMUEL ADAMS OCTOBERFEST (GOLD)
12. Capital Brewing Co…………………Octoberfest

16. Flying Dog Brewing Co……………..Dogtoberfest

18. Great Dane Pub & Brewing Co………Oktoberfest

23. Lakefront Brewery…………………….Oktoberfest

36. Sprecher brewing Co……………………Oktoberfest



I've had all of these this year. If I were rating it would be:

1. Lakefront Brewery…………………….Oktoberfest
2. Capital Brewing Co…………………Octoberfest
3. Great Dane Pub & Brewing Co………Oktoberfest
4. BOSTON BREWING CO………….SAMUEL ADAMS OCTOBERFEST
4. Flying Dog Brewing Co……………..Dogtoberfest
5. Sprecher brewing Co……………………Oktoberfest

Tie for 4th, Sprecher is good -- maybe a bit too sweet this year.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99
claiming that the competition is "rigged" knowing guys like that are blind judging, is not only ridiculous but completely irresponsible.

I never claimed the judging is rigged. What I said is that it is suspect. My contention is that they give medals to the macro brewers so they will $tay involved. It is an industry thing, and they spread it around. This is common practice in many industries. Just like Car and Driver, Road & Track, and Motor Trend crown a "Truck of The Year" every year. They pick a different truck every year from the pool of manufacturers, and they rotate. That's just how things like this work. What's good for one is good for the industry. Plus, as I said, what is the point of having Sierra Nevada win gold in the Pale Ale category every year?! If other people didn't think they could win, they wouldn't attend, and the festival wouldn't continue to enjoy success.

Look, if you guys want to be naive and pretend that there are not compromises made, be my guest.

Did you see the NFL game between the Atlanta and the Saints? Do you think for one minute that the Saints were going to lose that game? Do you guys believe that there was actually a homerun race in 1998 between Maguire and Sosa? Things in this world are often not what they seem. This is not conspiracy theory. You don't need conspiracy theories to understand it, you just need a grasp of the realities.

When money is involved there are compromises. That's the way the world works. That doesn't mean the GABF isn't great. I love the GABF.

You accuse me of being "irresponsible?" What kind of beer taster are you? Have you LOOKED at the winners in past years? Have you even BEEN to the festival? I have.

I'm not going to belabor this point. Go back check the list of winners in the past 5 years. What you'll find is a lot of medals awarded to Bud, Miller, and Coors. Then come back and explain that to us. I'll be waiting.

[hops99]

You accuse me of being "irresponsible?" What kind of beer taster are you? Have you LOOKED at the winners in past years? Have you even BEEN to the festival? I have.

Uh, yes. Making claims that the judging is "suspect" (which in most people's books would qualify as "rigged") without a shred of proof is irresponsible, to say the least. Just because you don't personally like the results (i.e. BMC winning some awards), you (and others of your ilk) systematically assume/claim that the judging is "suspect". I'm so sick and tired of the river of bullshit that flows from guys like you.

I've been tasting craft beers for over 15 years, son, and run my own craft beer and wine shop - I guess you could say that I'm IN the business, and I've been to over 30 beer festivals around the country in recent years.

I'm no BMC apologist, but until you have proof that Garrett Oliver, Michael Jackson, Lew Bryson, and the rest of the crew are rigging the event to "spread the medals" around to the big brewers, kindly grow up.

[brewmonkey]

If companies were able to "buy" their medals then how would those of that opinion explain all those times where "No medal was awarded" for many categories?

Having had my beers judges at the GABF numerous times I am quite confident that my brothers and sisters sitting down at those judging tables are more then capable of doing the job.

You also forget that the judging is 100% BLIND TASTING. They only know the category they are judging and not the beers that they are sampling. It would be impossible for a company to buy a medal.

You also have to look at the style guidelines and realize that many of those beers you bash are an exact fit to the guidelines. Add to that you need to see how many other brewers entered that category. Typically you will not find many brewers willing to enter American Lager or American Light Lager categories. Those are tough beers to make, no place to hid a flaw and many brewers just do not have the equipment needed to make it (like a super tight filter).

The funny thing is that every year after the GABF and every other year after the WBC I hear nothing but comments like those made here.

This is a perfect time not to bash them but to use their wins as a way to get people into other beers. If someone is insisting the beer they are drinking is the best thanks to the GABF medal advertised on the box then use the chance to have them try some of the other medal winners. If they
are using the medal as an excuse to justify their drinking Busch or what have you then they have taken away all the excuses they might make to move them onto something from say Russian River or Pizza Port.

Just my .02¢

[ratman03]

First off, you can dispense with the "son" stuff as I too have been tasting craft beers for over 15 years. Second, use the dictionary and look up the word "suspect". It does not equate to the meaning of the word "rigged". And, not to get in a flame war or anything, but I'll put my tasting skills and beer knowledge up against you any day.

The "Shred of Proof" is when inferior BMC products win medals year after year.

If this isn't enough proof for you, I don't know what else to tell you, other than to accuse you of being an apologist for mediocrity, which you are. When BMC shows up with a special GABF festival beer that is not that good, and it wins, that is lame. I love the GABF, but I'm sorry, that is lame.

Oh, and by the way, Garrett Oliver, Michael Jackson, and Lew Bryson do not run the GABF. It is organized and run by the Brewers Association.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
If companies were able to "buy" their medals then how would those of that opinion explain all those times where "No medal was awarded" for many categories?



Not sure if you are responding to my comments, but if you are, I do want to clarify that I did say or imply that anyone can simply "buy" medals.

I'm not bashing anyone's beer. I did say that BMC products are inferior, which they are.

[hops99]

And, not to get in a flame war or anything, but I'll put my tasting skills and beer knowledge up against you any day.

You don't want to be referred to as "son", then you fire up this? C'mon, it sounds like high school here. Grow up.


The "Shred of Proof" is when inferior BMC products win medals year after year.

I think you've beat that drum enough, but until you have proof politely STFU.


Oh, and by the way, Garrett Oliver, Michael Jackson, and Lew Bryson do not run the GABF.

Thanks, captain obvious. They are JUDGES at the GABF, and I'm sure they'd love to hear your conspiracy theories - which directly compromise their integrity (and the integrity of all of the GABF staff and management).

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99


I think you've beat that drum enough, but until you have proof politely STFU.



Oh I get it... You're one of those 'stay the course' types. God forbid somebody should use their noggin once in a while.

STFU?!?! Are you serious?

This is what is called a flame war. Flame wars are started by people who can't intelligently debate things. Boo hoo, I said something you don't like... Time to act like an a$#%hole, eh? Who is the one who needs to grow up here?

The PROOF you want is self-evident. The PROOF is that inferior beers are winning medals. How much clearer do I have to make that? Maybe by the 50th time you'll understand it.

I could go on to explain why I think why Charlie Papazian and the Brewer's Assoc. are doing the right thing by getting the macro brewers invovled, but you probably wouldn't *get* that either.

[dparsons]

The reason for questioning the outcome of the medal awards is obvious and legitimate: lousy beers have won gold, silver, and bronze medals; and won them in categories against beers that are recognized by members of this forum as being distinctly better. This is a simple and legitimate reason to ask the question "why?"

Do you really believe that Michelob Marzen is number 1 or 2 in the Marzen/Oktoberfest category?

If Old Milwaukee Lite got gold for American-Style Light Lager, how disgusting is the rest of the field? Have you ever tried to drink that stuff? Why didn't they choose not to give any medals at all as no entrant could possibly deserve a medal if Old Milwaukee is the best of the group?

As for blind taste testing - that is the legitimate way to do it, but I can tell Coke from Pepsi. I'm not making an accusation of dishonest judging, just posing the question inspired by the illogical & unreasonable results from the competition.

[hops99]

This is what is called a flame war. Flame wars are started by people who can't intelligently debate things.

My point exactly. Keep on searching - remember, the truth is out there....

I think we're done here, kiddo.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
I never claimed the judging is rigged. What I said is that it is suspect. My contention is that they give medals to the macro brewers so they will $tay involved. It is an industry thing, and they spread it around.

When money is involved there are compromises. That's the way the world works.

Way to straddle that fence ratman.

You won't plainly state the judging is rigged, nor that macro breweries can buy medals. Yet, by believing that medals are "spread around" despite the GABF being a blindly judged competition & stating that $$ and compromises are involved in everything in life, that is exactly what you're saying.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Fair enough.

If the judging is done properly - blindly, using people well-versed in the style at hand - and the macros still take home medals....few people will still give them credit but it might quiet some.

If the judging isn't up to snuff, it would confirm some suspicions here and confirm my feeling that many small breweries are justified in not spending time, $$ and effort on submitting and entry. Rather, focus on growing your brand locally, day in and day out.

Cheers!

I believe that the judging is taken seriously and is done properly and blindly. I know guys who have judged there including this year and it is a big deal. I do not think the judge pool is tainted.

I do think there are plenty of catagories that may have been designed to cover even macro entries. I have no real problem with that. The medal part of the whole thing really means nothing to me. I go to festivals to sample hopefully good beers and enjoy beers that are not usually available. IMHO the best festival for me is GBBF.

[Mill Rat]

I'll throw my little theory on the whole matter in here, maybe it will be like oil on water, maybe like gasoline on a fire...

The entries of the macros into the GABF will be under the care and guidance of their marketing department or equivalent group. There is no other division in a corporate entity that can yank around the resources, time and schedules of other corporate divisions like marketing can. Marketing is all about putting the best foot forward for the company when said foot will be visible to the public.

Those in charge of the GABF marketing projects for the macros are charged with bringing home a medal. They will have been assigned a pot of money to do so that probably exceeds the yearly gross revenue of most craft brewers. They're going to use all the resources they can corral within their budget to win, and that includes making production and R & D dance to tune of winning GABF medals.

The marketing gurus will want to ensure that their product that competes at the festival is the best possible representative of their capabilities. They sure as hell ain't just grabbing a few kegs off the production line Wednesday evening and tossing them in their trunk. What makes it to the GABF from the macros has seen more hand-crafted care that most of the craft brew entries. Of course, if their day-to day production beer was made with the same care as their GABF entries, retail prices of 12 bucks per 30-pack would drive them quickly bankrupt.

Think of most of the judging categories as high-school wrestling, with a couple of sumo mats over on one side with the names American Lager and American Light Lager. These categories are really a separate event.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99
My point exactly. Keep on searching - remember, the truth is out there....

I think we're done here, kiddo.

Sorry, try again. You're still ducking the issue. Since you've resorted to juvenile name calling, I'm going to press you on it:

I challenged you to explain why, year after year, that inferior beers from macro brewers win medals over more deserving entrants. Yet, in every subsequent post, you have chosen to not address this simple question.

Let's be honest: You're done here because your point of view isn't tenable. I made a statement, you challenged it, and I challenged you to refute my assertion that there is a reason that inferior beers are winning medals. To date, you have not addressed it.

What you have done is called me "irresponsible" "son", "kiddo", and told me to "STFU".

So I'll ask you again: Why do inferior beers from the macro brewers win medals every year?

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Way to straddle that fence ratman.

You won't plainly state the judging is rigged, nor that macro breweries can buy medals. Yet, by believing that medals are "spread around" despite the GABF being a blindly judged competition & stating that $$ and compromises are involved in everything in life, that is exactly what you're saying.

I won't "plainly state the judging is rigged" because I don't know that it is. If I *knew* that was the case, I would say so. What I said is that it is my opinion that it is suspect in some cases. I never said that the GABF competition is "rigged." hops99 introduced the term "rigged" into this thread. I choose my words carefully. In turn, I would ask that you please read carefully.

I'm not trying to get in a beef with you but I believe I have clearly made my point with regard to this and I do not appreciate people creatively interpreting my statements to suit their ends. You are at liberty to infer whatever you want with regard to statements I have made, but this does not mean that your interpretation is correct.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
I'll throw my little theory on the whole matter in here, maybe it will be like oil on water, maybe like gasoline on a fire...

The entries of the macros into the GABF will be under the care and guidance of their marketing department or equivalent group. There is no other division in a corporate entity that can yank around the resources, time and schedules of other corporate divisions like marketing can. Marketing is all about putting the best foot forward for the company when said foot will be visible to the public.

Those in charge of the GABF marketing projects for the macros are charged with bringing home a medal. They will have been assigned a pot of money to do so that probably exceeds the yearly gross revenue of most craft brewers. They're going to use all the resources they can corral within their budget to win, and that includes making production and R & D dance to tune of winning GABF medals.

The marketing gurus will want to ensure that their product that competes at the festival is the best possible representative of their capabilities. They sure as hell ain't just grabbing a few kegs off the production line Wednesday evening and tossing them in their trunk. What makes it to the GABF from the macros has seen more hand-crafted care that most of the craft brew entries. Of course, if their day-to day production beer was made with the same care as their GABF entries, retail prices of 12 bucks per 30-pack would drive them quickly bankrupt.

Think of most of the judging categories as high-school wrestling, with a couple of sumo mats over on one side with the names American Lager and American Light Lager. These categories are really a separate event.

As you so correctly point out, the macros are not in this for the fun of it. If they are going to show up at the GABF and contribute, they expect a return from it. The GABF people know this, and so they have created categories in which the macros can be competitive. This, in my opinion, is exactly what the GABF SHOULD do. They realize that the more money and exposure they can generate for great beer, the better it will be for ALL craft brewers. So they gotta throw the big boys a bone now and again. The GABF is looking at the big picture, and rightly so.

[hops99]

Sorry, try again. You're still ducking the issue. Since you've resorted to juvenile name calling, I'm going to press you on it:

Ratman, you need to lighten up. Big time. The simple comment that I made, which apparently got your juices flowing, is/was the fact that it's highly irresponsible to make claims that "medals are spread around, judging is suspect, etc." without any proof to back up the statement. Quite frankly, that should apply to everything in life, not just beer medals at an annual competition, and is hopefully a lesson that you'll learn someday.

Your assertion that "the shred of proof" is the fact that macros make "inferior" products and still win medals is subjective at best. Once again, just because YOU personally think that they are inferior doesn't mean that they actually are - a little myopic, no? As has been pointed out several times in this thread (by many others), most of the medals that the macros win are for beers in categories that micros don't care about (american light lager, etc.). And the one medal that seemed to draw the ire early in this thread was the Michelob Marzen. Until someone else blind tastes all of the marzens in the category, and magically picks the Michelob out for being the "inferior" one of the bunch, quit cursing the darkness - it's not helpful to anyone.

Personally, I strongly dislike most of the offerings from BMC (as most craft beer enthusiasts do), and am less than thrilled by some of their business practices. If you were to read my posts regarding the macro brewers in threads of years past, I've roasted them at times, and defended them at others. The bottom line - I call it as I see it, and when someone makes accusatory claims that they can't back up, I'll call them out every time. It was your turn.

If the day comes when you catch the guys who run the GABF with their pants down, in the middle of rigging - er, "spreading" the medals around, hence manipulating the integrity of the competition (geez, that sounds alot like rigging, no?) to get macro brewer medals they don't deserve, shoot me an e-mail. I'll be the first in line to back you up, chief. Until then, enough is enough.

[hooky]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but here goes. Ratman, what makes you think the Macro stuff that is entered is inferior, particularly given millrat's theory? Also, what categories are they "creating" for the macros?

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99
Ratman, you need to lighten up. Big time.

This from the guy who told me to STFU.

The simple comment that I made, which apparently got your juices flowing, is/was the fact that it's highly irresponsible to make claims that "medals are spread around, judging is suspect, etc." without any proof to back up the statement.

The proof is that inferior beers win medals every year, in many categories. You can check the winners from previous years if you don't believe me.

Quite frankly, that should apply to everything in life, not just beer medals at an annual competition, and is hopefully a lesson that you'll learn someday.

I'm one of those people who can extrapolate based on evidence. You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Your assertion that "the shred of proof" is the fact that macros make "inferior" products and still win medals is subjective at best. Once again, just because YOU personally think that they are inferior doesn't mean that they actually are - a little myopic, no?

Are you serious? You're actually going to take this position?

As has been pointed out several times in this thread (by many others), most of the medals that the macros win are for beers in categories that micros don't care about (american light lager, etc.).

Not true. Go back and check the winners from previous years. They throw bones to the big boys every year.

And the one medal that seemed to draw the ire early in this thread was the Michelob Marzen. Until someone else blind tastes all of the marzens in the category, and magically picks the Michelob out for being the "inferior" one of the bunch, quit cursing the darkness - it's not helpful to anyone.

Silly me. What WAS I thinking? Michelob ROCKS!!!! :rolleyes:

Personally, I strongly dislike most of the offerings from BMC (as most craft beer enthusiasts do), and am less than thrilled by some of their business practices. If you were to read my posts regarding the macro brewers in threads of years past, I've roasted them at times, and defended them at others. The bottom line - I call it as I see it, and when someone makes accusatory claims that they can't back up, I'll call them out every time. It was your turn.

I have no problem backing up anything I say. My backup is years of questionable medal winners.

If the day comes when you catch the guys who run the GABF with their pants down, in the middle of rigging - er, "spreading" the medals around, hence manipulating the integrity of the competition (geez, that sounds alot like rigging, no?) to get macro brewer medals they don't deserve, shoot me an e-mail. I'll be the first in line to back you up, chief. Until then, enough is enough.

How about I leave that up to you. I don't need to catch anyone with a smoking gun. I'm not the one who keeps asking for proof -- It's easy to see what's up, and I'm fine with it. The GABF is a great festival, and the organizers are doing a good job of looking at the big picture and promoting great beer.

And let me leave you with this: Has it occurred to you the major brewers UNDERSTAND that a craft beer festival, is -- how should I say it -- BIASED?!?! The people that organize and judge the GABF are brewers, beer journalists, authors, and craft beer lovers. They are in the industry because they love craft beer. The people who run A-B, Miller, and Coors are cognizant of this.

How many times do you think the macros would enter the GABF if they were stoned at the judging table?

The organizers of the GABF are mindful of the fact that the big brewers would not continue to attend if they didn't win any medals. So, they give them some medals from time to time. That is my entire point in a nutshell. I didn't cast aspersions on the organizers of the GABF or the festival itself, because as I have stated, I think they are doing the right thing. In fact, were I in their position, I would do the same.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hooky
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but here goes. Ratman, what makes you think the Macro stuff that is entered is inferior, particularly given millrat's theory? Also, what categories are they "creating" for the macros?

My taste buds and my nose tell me it's inferior :)

As to Mill Rat's point, I agree with him. Below, I have listed winners from selected categories in 2003 (BTW, I'm listing 2003 because I found it in HTML format so I could cut and paste. This year's winners are available in .pdf at http://www.beertown.org/events/gabf/gabf06_winners.pdf)

Check it out: PBR, The Beast, Miller High Life, Bud, etc... are winning medals every year in categories with 20+ entries. Is anyone gonna tell me that Milwaukee's Best Ice is worth a Bronze for anything other than watering the lawn?

Here's some examples from 2003:

Category: 18 American-Style Light Lager - 27 Entries
Gold: Old Style Light, Pabst Brewing Co., San Antonio, TX
Silver: Miller Lite, Miller Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI
Bronze: Old Milwaukee Light, Pabst Brewing Co., San Antonio, TX

Category: 20 American-Style Lager - 21 Entries
Gold: Old Milwaukee, Pabst Brewing Co., San Antonio, TX
Silver: Rainier, Pabst Brewing Co., San Antonio, TX
Bronze: Stegmaier Gold Medal, The Lion Brewery, Inc., Wilkes-Barre, PA

Category: 21 American-Style Premium Lager - 18 Entries
Gold: Point Special, Stevens Point Brewery, Stevens Point, WI
Silver: Miller Genuine Draft, Miller Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI
Bronze: Budweiser, Anheuser-Busch, Inc., Saint Louis, MO

Category: 22 American-Style Specialty Lager - 16 Entries
Gold: Ice House, Plank Road Brewery, Milwaukee, WI
Silver: Mickey's Malt Liquor, Mickey's Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI
Bronze: Milwaukee's Best Ice, Miller Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI

Category: 2 American Lager/Ale or Cream Ale - 29 Entries
Gold: Red Dog, Plank Road Brewery, Milwaukee, WI
Silver: Milwaukee's Best, Miller Brewing Co., Milwaukee, WI
Bronze: Old Style, Pabst Brewing Co., San Antonio, TX

Need I say more?

[hooky]

Originally posted by ratman03
[B]My taste buds and my nose tell me it's inferior :)

As to Mill Rat's point, I agree with him.

I guess that's where I'm confused. You agree with millrat when he basically said that they're not pulling something off the kegging line, rather it's a batch that is getting loads of TLC. Yet you weren't a judge, so how do your taste buds and nose tell you anything about the particular batch that won a medal?

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hooky
I guess that's where I'm confused. You agree with millrat when he basically said that they're not pulling something off the kegging line, rather it's a batch that is getting loads of TLC. Yet you weren't a judge, so how do your taste buds and nose tell you anything about the particular batch that won a medal?

I agree with Mill Rat where he's saying that they have "created" special categories that the macros can win in.
Mill Rat, correct me if I've misinterpreted you. The data I included in the post was to support this conclusion.

No, I wasn't a judge at the GABF. But I've been tasting beer for a long time and I haven't yet had anything from the major brewers that is comparable to a quality craft brewer. It's not like the macro brewers whip out incredible beer batches for the GABF... From my experience it is mediocre at best.

To each his own, though.

Cheers!

[dparsons]

I'm almost sorry I started this thread.

We are all about good beer here. All of us. Unless I'm mistaken, we are in general agreement that the products that the macros sell is poor quality beer. We're asking why they won medals, but we don't need to yell at each other because somebody else's guess at a possibility doesn't agree my point of view.

[dparsons]

In respons to the 4 possibilities I originally posted:

1) The macros bought and paid for the wins beforehand.
This isn't what any of us would want to see and isn't likely, but contests have been rigged many times in the course of human history. It is still possible.

2) These are beer categories that either no one else is allowed into, or no one else will participate in.
Someone pointed out the lower interest levels in some of the BJCP syles dominated by the macros - American Lager types. I read the descriptions and they are not appetizing. These categories cover most of the macro wins.

3) The macros make actual beer just for the contest.
Very possible. Has anybody here tasted their contest entries?

4) The style is defined by what the macros are, and try as they might the craft brewing industry is not able to make beers that taste quite so ... ____.
Having read the BJCP guidelines for the American Lager types, I'd say they are a reflection of what the macros have been for the past half century. The guidlines allow for
Low levels of yeast character (green apples, DMS, or fruitiness) are optional but acceptable.
The american lager style guidelines are the only ones that allow for green apples or furtiness/fruity esthers. Does this bother anybody else?

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
No, I wasn't a judge at the GABF. But I've been tasting beer for a long time and I haven't yet had anything from the major brewers that is comparable to a quality craft brewer. It's not like the macro brewers whip out incredible beer batches for the GABF... From my experience it is mediocre at best.



And there we have it. You weren't a judge. You're not a recognized expert (that you've indicated) in judging or tasting at competitions. You've not taken part in the GABF judging, which is confirmed to be done blindly. So, with all due respect, your years of beer tasting mean nothing in this argument.

When you approach a macrobrewer's booth at the GABF for a sample, you already have preconceptions about what you will taste. Experience and reputation count for a lot. Now...if you were in the position to remove those macro labels, and the associations that go with them, and taste their beera among dozens of other candidates in a given style, I'm willing to bet your own results would surprise you.

Until that day, your assetion of "inferior beer" has no legs.

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by hops99
I think you've beat that drum enough, but until you have proof politely STFU.

I think we can discuss this topic politely without resorting to epithets. We all have opinions being thrown about, doesn't make any of us more correct than the other until we know the full story (ies).

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by dparsons
The american lager style guidelines are the only ones that allow for green apples or furtiness/fruity esthers. Does this bother anybody else?

This and an abundant use of malted rice is why I don't accept this category when I'm asked to judge a competition.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
So, with all due respect, your years of beer tasting mean nothing in this argument.

I have to step in and disagree with this statement. One can be focused and intent on a hobby and be highly skilled and experienced without being "recognized," licensed, or in posession of a degree.

If you recall, I'm the one who threw out the "Michelob?" live chicken to this pool of aligators to being with. I wasn't at the GABF this year either, but I find it pretty strange that this beer won 2d prize out of a stable of 45 beers.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

...and won gold in the category, last year.

Noticed they were selling singles of this at the paint store I frequent, on Friday. Guess it's time to further enrich the evil empire by actually buying & TASTIN' the sumbitch, before I spout off any further.....

...a course I recommend to unnamed others, FWIW....

[steveh]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
...a course I recommend to unnamed others, FWIW....

If I can find a single bottle, I plan to do the same -- and promise to judge only on my sensory perception, not my emotional reaction to an A-B product.

Newport - Miller had their Chocolate Stout at the Grealt Lakes Beer Fest a few weeks ago. I have to admit that it wasn't bad, then again - many have said you can cover dirt with chocolate and make it taste good! ;)

S.

[Jeff]

Come on Steve, don't just hope to put your emotions aside. Get about five or ten other O'fests and do a real blind tasting. See where everything plays out.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
And there we have it. You weren't a judge. You're not a recognized expert (that you've indicated) in judging or tasting at competitions. You've not taken part in the GABF judging, which is confirmed to be done blindly. So, with all due respect, your years of beer tasting mean nothing in this argument.

When you approach a macrobrewer's booth at the GABF for a sample, you already have preconceptions about what you will taste. Experience and reputation count for a lot. Now...if you were in the position to remove those macro labels, and the associations that go with them, and taste their beera among dozens of other candidates in a given style, I'm willing to bet your own results would surprise you.

Until that day, your assetion of "inferior beer" has no legs.

Cheers!

My years of beer pursuit -- tasting, reading, learning, traveling, and homebrewing -- mean... NOTHING??? Interesting perspective. I'll be sure to pass that on to others who strive to become more knowledgeable and competent at their chosen profession or hobby. Yes, "experience and reputation" do count for a lot -- for novices.

You've officially lost me there, newport. I've enjoyed debating you in the past, but now I have to ask myself: What's the point? You either have an axe to grind with me, or you haven't the farthest idea of what you are talking about.

You and hops99 ought to sit down with a Miller Lite, a Bud Ice, and a PBR and have a little Macro Lover's Tasting Session. Please post some tasting notes for us as I'm sure they'll be very informative.

[MeridianFC]

I'm a day late and a dollar short on this debate but thought I throw this out there (I'm a confirmed hater of all things B/M/C). None other than Fritz Maytag called A-B one of the best brewers in the US (or was it world). He said, and I'm paraphrasing here (maybe Chaz can recall the quote exactly as he was at the same talk I was) "their beer may not be to your taste but it is good beer." He also talked a bit about how some beer purists slam the Big 3 for use of adjuncts, but he noted many "craft" breweries use 'em too. He noted that he preferred to use all malt in his brews, though OSA ceratainly has other stuff going on. FWIW he mentioned he initially used to buy all his malt from Coors.

I'll let everyone get back to the pissing match that was in progress.

:D

[ratman03]

Originally posted by dparsons
I'm almost sorry I started this thread.

We are all about good beer here. All of us. Unless I'm mistaken, we are in general agreement that the products that the macros sell is poor quality beer. We're asking why they won medals, but we don't need to yell at each other because somebody else's guess at a possibility doesn't agree my point of view.

Don't be sorry! Most of us welcome lively debate.

I too thought we were all in general agreement that the macros brew inferior beer. This thread has demonstrated otherwise, however. I can't understand why people feel the need to advocate for Bud, Miller, and Coors.

And I would guess that everyone here who has been to the GABF loves it. I know I do, even if they did have to create a few categories to keep the BMC folks happy. :p

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
My years of beer pursuit -- tasting, reading, learning, traveling, and homebrewing -- mean... NOTHING??? Interesting perspective. I'll be sure to pass that on to others who strive to become more knowledgeable and competent at their chosen profession or hobby. Yes, "experience and reputation" do count for a lot -- for novices.

You've officially lost me there, newport. I've enjoyed debating you in the past, but now I have to ask myself: What's the point? You either have an axe to grind with me, or you haven't the farthest idea of what you are talking about.



Pay attention. I've no axe to grind with complete strangers.

In the context of this discussion, where you were not a judge involved in blind tasting of the many beers in question...no, your personal tasting experience means nothing.

I never said you weren't knowledgable. I never said you were incompetent. But your opinion about how a beer tastes (knowing which beer you're holding in your glass) means nothing when compared to judging a beer, to style (mostly), blindly from a large field of entrants. It's apples to oranges.

If anyone here has participated in such a tasting/judging, your input would be valuable.

Cheers!

[Jeff]

Ratman do you brew beer?

Make an American Light Lager, see how it turns out.

Secondly, go get certified by the BJCP.

I do not regularly consume BMC products but will drink one if offered. I don't really care for the lack of flavor, but obviously BMC is doing something right considering their market share for the last few decades. Don't tell me it is because of a lack of a better choice. The majority of macro drinkers have continued to choose it even with a plethora of "better" beers out there.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
I'm a day late and a dollar short on this debate but thought I throw this out there (I'm a confirmed hater of all things B/M/C). None other than Fritz Maytag called A-B one of the best brewers in the US (or was it world). He said, and I'm paraphrasing here (maybe Chaz can recall the quote exactly as he was at the same talk I was) "their beer may not be to your taste but it is good beer." He also talked a bit about how some beer purists slam the Big 3 for use of adjuncts, but he noted many "craft" breweries use 'em too. He noted that he preferred to use all malt in his brews, though OSA ceratainly has other stuff going on. FWIW he mentioned he initially used to buy all his malt from Coors.

I'll let everyone get back to the pissing match that was in progress.

:D

Fritz was being diplomatic. His family probably socializes with the Budweiser people. He is a Maytag heir, after all.

If Fritz thinks they are so great, why does his brewery make some of the best, unique, original beer on the planet? Take his comments as a man being polite, nothing more.

As far as A-B, since we have yet another RealBeer member rising to Macro Jihadist: Do you know the ingredients in Budweiser? Do you know how much bad @$#% they put in that stuff? Think commercial cigarettes in liquid form. I'll stick to Anchor Steam, thanks.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
I have to step in and disagree with this statement. One can be focused and intent on a hobby and be highly skilled and experienced without being "recognized," licensed, or in posession of a degree.

If you recall, I'm the one who threw out the "Michelob?" live chicken to this pool of aligators to being with. I wasn't at the GABF this year either, but I find it pretty strange that this beer won 2d prize out of a stable of 45 beers.

S.

Of course you can. I know and trust the opinion of many people who are neither judges nor brewers. Their years of beer drinking surely count for something. Then again, if I think their tongue is dead I've no problem telling them so. ;)

But in the context of this thread, no one has stated they were a judge of this large blind competition. So, in this case, personal experience is great for a review, but to comment on "inferior beer" getting medals? It's silly.

Try attempting such a tasting and check the results - they could open some eyes.

Cheers!

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Jeff
Ratman do you brew beer?

Make an American Light Lager, see how it turns out.

Secondly, go get certified by the BJCP.

I do not regularly consume BMC products but will drink one if offered. I don't really care for the lack of flavor, but obviously BMC is doing something right considering their market share for the last few decades. Don't tell me it is because of a lack of a better choice. The majority of macro drinkers have continued to choose it even with a plethora of "better" beers out there.

The majority of macro drinkers have continued to choose it because they have no taste, or they don't know any better, or both. And yes, BMC is doing "something right": It's called marketing. Pepsi, Red Bull and Coke are caffeinated sugar syrup water and they are multinational, multibillion dollar brands. That should tell you something. What the "majority" chooses to do does not concern me.

I have brewed a little bit of beer, your basic homebrew stuff. I don't have the facilities at present to really get into it again, but I am planning to as soon as I do. I did brew a light lager years ago (my father likes them sometimes) and it turned out ok. Better than Budweiser at least.

As far as the BJCP, you must be a mind reader. This thread got me thinking of that very thing. Thanks for the recommendation, I will be sure to check it out.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jeff
Come on Steve, don't just hope to put your emotions aside. Get about five or ten other O'fests and do a real blind tasting. See where everything plays out.

Since Oktoberfest is my favorite style of beer, I think I can put my emotions aside and decide whether or not the Mich Marzen is a good representation of the style -- or any other Okto, for that matter. I never cared for New Glarus' Staghorn to the style at all, and I've been among the first to declare disappointment in many US micro Oktos.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
So, in this case, personal experience is great for a review

Or lively debate - not insult and injury.

but to comment on "inferior beer" getting medals? It's silly.

The comment and skepticism *can* be justified based on historical experience with the brew (as I said about my experience originally), and that's where the whole debate started.

S.

[MeridianFC]

Steve, American brewers, to this point, can't make great Oktos. There I said it.

Rat, as far as this debate I think Fritz was being honest in his assesment, that's how it struck me anyways. For every brewer I've met who trashes B/M/C I've met one who gives them their fair due as far as quality and consistency of product. Taste is a very subjective thing (hey I think it tastes like piss but I also think the music of Yes blows but there's no doubt they're very talented musicians). I've had plenty of craft beer that's been more crap beer. Micro does not always mean quality, though I will conceed that craft beer more often than not is at least "good".

I don't think you'll find very many here who rate any B/M/C. Personally I'll go without before drinking any of 'em, but I think what some are trying to suggest is that the quality of their brew is a matter of taste rather than fact and further to that what was on offer at the GABF is unknown to any who weren't there, though one could certainly surmise based on past experience, but it'd be just a guess.

[ratman03]

MeridianFC:

I agree with you on all counts except on the music of YES.

In all seriousness, what we are talking about when we discuss beer IS subjective. What interests me about connoisseurship is taking something that is essentially subjective and introducing objectivity to it. The statement "Anchor Steam is my favorite beer" is subjective, while "Anchor Steam has more mouthfeel, IBUs, and malt taste" is an objective statement. When we are formulating our opinions of a beer, we employ a combination of the two, because we are human beings and we cannot be completely objective.

Admittedly, respected people do give BMC props for their consistency. Jim Koch once said much the same about one of the major brewers, I believe. And though what BMC is doing is more akin to large-scale chemistry than it is to brewing, I can see where a guy like Jim Koch, who runs a big brewery himself, can respect it. And yeah, small doesn't necessarily mean good. 10-12 years ago, there were some crappy micros. But most of those have been shaken out.

re: Fritz - The only one who knows what Fritz meant is Fritz himself. But I'll hazard a guess that if Fritz liked the taste of BMC products he probably wouldn't have bought the Anchor Brewery in the first place! ;)

[denver brewhoo]

I think there are fewer people advocating for AB than there are people advocating for the integrity of the GABF, for what it's worth.

I have, in particular, yet to read anything from newportstorm advocating for AB.

it is absolutely true that blind tasting is a whole nother animal

Last year at GABF I tasted the 2005 Michelob Marzen and their Pale Ale and was appalled that they medalled (GOLD in fact)----BUT I was holding the bottle in my hand and knew what I was drinking.

Heres a better example, Red Hook. Lots of us micro lovers found it fashionable to mock Red Hook after they did their distro deal with AB. But I got caught in a blind tasting picking Red Hook as my favorite in a group of six pales--well they were ambers and sort of unagressive pales, like Breckenridge Avalanche....but still.

Try it, it's eye opening. I mean among beers of a similar style, not a Pacific NW IPA vs a cream ale or something.

Meanwhile I'm off to purchase my mich marzen. Maybe I'll wash it down with the Ayinger!

[ratman03]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
I think there are fewer people advocating for AB than there are people advocating for the integrity of the GABF, for what it's worth.

I have, in particular, yet to read anything from newportstorm advocating for AB.

it is absolutely true that blind tasting is a whole nother animal

Last year at GABF I tasted the 2005 Michelob Marzen and their Pale Ale and was appalled that they medalled (GOLD in fact)----BUT I was holding the bottle in my hand and knew what I was drinking.

Heres a better example, Red Hook. Lots of us micro lovers found it fashionable to mock Red Hook after they did their distro deal with AB. But I got caught in a blind tasting picking Red Hook as my favorite in a group of six pales--well they were ambers and sort of unagressive pales, like Breckenridge Avalanche....but still.

Try it, it's eye opening. I mean among beers of a similar style, not a Pacific NW IPA vs a cream ale or something.

Meanwhile I'm off to purchase my mich marzen. Maybe I'll wash it down with the Ayinger!

Ouch! Ayinger deserves better!

I have done blind taste tests, and I agree that it can have an effect. I've also tasted wine blind, and I agree that blind tasting is different, but again, I'll restate my position that it has more of an effect on the novice taster. A lot of things have an effect -- setting, mood, style of glass, phase of the moon, etc...

If you were truly "appalled" at the Mich Marzen and Pale, most likely it wasn't simply because you knew what you were drinking. As I have said before, although what we're talking about is involves subjectivity, beer characteristics can be quantified.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Pay attention. I've no axe to grind with complete strangers.

In the context of this discussion, where you were not a judge involved in blind tasting of the many beers in question...no, your personal tasting experience means nothing.

I never said you weren't knowledgable. I never said you were incompetent. But your opinion about how a beer tastes (knowing which beer you're holding in your glass) means nothing when compared to judging a beer, to style (mostly), blindly from a large field of entrants. It's apples to oranges.

If anyone here has participated in such a tasting/judging, your input would be valuable.

Cheers!

Thanks. You weren't a judge either, but somehow your opinion matters? That makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

Why don't you try contributing something to this discussion instead of hammering on me every time I post?

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by ratman03
Fritz was being diplomatic. His family probably socializes with the Budweiser people. He is a Maytag heir, after all.


Did Fritz tell you this personally, or is this just another wild supposition like "the judging is suspect."

I'm VERY late jumping into this thread, but I'm going to add my $.02 anyway.

First, by saying that the judging is suspect, you are effectively accusing the judges of doing something that is not strictly honest. No matter how you try to say that you aren't, you are. If everything was legitamite, then there wouldn't be anything suspect, would there?

Second, Newportstorm is right, since you were not a judge at the festival, how can you speak intelligently about what they were tasting? Many people have brought up the fact that the Macro breweries were going to send their VERY BEST beers to the festival. If you think that they are going to send the same swill that Earl(no offense intended to anybody named Earl) is pounding down in his trailer, you are sadly mistaken. They are going to pay somebody A LOT of money to come in and brew a beer that exactly matches the style that they are entering. Since they have that kind of money, and the facilities, they can brew an award winning beer if they want to. Since it falls under the same category of American Light Lager, or whatever category, they can then turn around and throw a sentence on the can that says "Gold Medal Winner - GABF". The only thing that is suspect about that is why doesn't the mega brewery choose to brew that well all the time.

Finally, Meridian, the music of Yes does blow, but less than Asia.

[hops99]

I think there are fewer people advocating for AB than there are people advocating for the integrity of the GABF, for what it's worth.

Bingo. Someone who gets it (thanks Brewhoo).

Why don't you try contributing something to this discussion instead of hammering on me every time I post?

Please. You make a series of baseless claims in this thread (from the compromised integrity of the GABF to the NFL fixing games, etc.), but you're *surprised* when someone challenges your proclamations? You can tell Newport and I to have a "PBR and Natty Light" tasting and post the notes (which, by the way, was so funny I wet myself - man, you could give Bob Saget a run for his money), yet think someone is hammering you every time you post? Sure. You can cry foul when someone tells you to STFU or *gasp* calls you "son", but yet it's no problem to call others "a$$hole", and gleefully announce that you're starting a "flame war"? Well, flame on, brother.

Here's a newsflash, Ratman. It ain't about you, nor me, or anyone else who has contributed to this thread. It's about the integrity of the GABF, pure and simple. Get over yourself.

[hops99]

Come on Steve, don't just hope to put your emotions aside. Get about five or ten other O'fests and do a real blind tasting. See where everything plays out.

This is good advice. I host wine and beer tastings every Thursday night, with crowds of 50+, and the reaction to a certain beer (or wine, as well) based on the label is predictable. I did an Okto tasting back in September, and of the 7 that I poured, Sam Adams was easily the least favorite (the others in the lineup were Spaten, Paulaner, Hofbrau, Stoudt's, Flying Dog, and Summit). I poured the same lineup of beers at a University tasting a few nights later, only this time blind, and Sam Adams came in at #2, only behind the Spaten. Coincidence? I think not.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer

Finally, Meridian, the music of Yes does blow, but less than Asia.

Getting shot in the foot is better than getting shot in the head but neither is something one wants to have happen.

[hops99]

Guess it's time to further enrich the evil empire by actually buying & TASTIN' the sumbitch, before I spout off any further.....

I just brought in a display of the Michelob Sampler today - a 20 pack with 4 bottles each of Bavarian Wheat, Pale Ale, Marzen, Porter, and Amber Bock. Now, I'm not a fan of the Amber Bock at all, but the other four I will try. 3 of the other 4 are labeled as "all malt", so I guess that means that there is no tobacco, chemicals, or, as someone so eloquently put it, "the sh*% that they put in cigarettes". Imagine that.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
Thanks. You weren't a judge either, but somehow your opinion matters? That makes a lot of sense :rolleyes:

I've offered no opinion on any beers at the GABF, who won medals, why they won, whether they deserve them or not, etc. Simply suggested you try putting together a blind tasting of dozens of similar beers and picking the best ones before casting stones.

Originally posted by ratman03

Why don't you try contributing something to this discussion instead of hammering on me every time I post?

I'm content in what I've posted/contributed. And I'm far from hammering anyone.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by ratman03
Don't be sorry! Most of us welcome lively debate.

Its not the debate, its the name calling. I don't take it as my fault, I just thought we we should be more respectful.

[dparsons]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
First, by saying that the judging is suspect, you are effectively accusing the judges of doing something that is not strictly honest. No matter how you try to say that you aren't, you are. If everything was legitamite, then there wouldn't be anything suspect, would there?

Second, Newportstorm is right, since you were not a judge at the festival, how can you speak intelligently about what they were tasting? Many people have brought up the fact that the Macro breweries were going to send their VERY BEST beers to the festival. If you think that they are going to send the same swill that Earl(no offense intended to anybody named Earl) is pounding down in his trailer, you are sadly mistaken. They are going to pay somebody A LOT of money to come in and brew a beer that exactly matches the style that they are entering. Since they have that kind of money, and the facilities, they can brew an award winning beer if they want to. Since it falls under the same category of American Light Lager, or whatever category, they can then turn around and throw a sentence on the can that says "Gold Medal Winner - GABF". The only thing that is suspect about that is why doesn't the mega brewery choose to brew that well all the time.

So your guess is that it is most likely option 3) then?

[steveh]

Originally posted by dparsons
I just thought we we should be more respectful.

And you're right we should...at least, some of us should. We've been bigger than this around here, there's no need for sniping and flaming over opinions.

On the subject at hand, I looked in a couple different establishments last night and the only Mich Marzen I could find was in a case as Hops is describing - $16 that won't come out of my pocket, no matter what the label advertises.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

I had one last night. I think its pretty good. I'll bet the ones they entered in the GABF were even better. I can totally see why it took second and I might actually like it better than Samuel Adams, though it is markedly inferior-- at least one tier down-- to the Spaten, Paulaner and Ayinger Oktos I've tasted. Haven't had the midwestern ones Steveh references but the surprise to me is that Capital didn't do better based not ony on Steve but other tasters....but this is as you might expect a very very well made beer, in terms of the appearance and physical characteristics.

Does have that melanoid-ey thing the great German classic have & that I find missing in micro attempts, though you wish the Michelob had a little more. Not overcarbonated as I remembered but a definite "carbonic bite" detracts somewhat. Appropriate noble hop presence in the appropriate amount. Believe this is force carbonated, krausened versions I've tried yield much creamier mouth feel, this is disappointingly thin.

Summary--nice malts, hits the right notes only, still, less so IMHO than optimimum. Could use a little more "roundness" for lack of a better word (this is why I don't do tasting notes, I suck at describing things). minor points off for that "carbonic bite." Hops appropriate. Color (dark amber/burnished copper) beautiful, clarity glass-like. Head surprisingly small, surprisingly rapid in diminishing to nada.

I hope hops99 does another blind tastin at his store and tosses this one in. Curious what folks will say.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
Did Fritz tell you this personally, or is this just another wild supposition like "the judging is suspect."

I'm VERY late jumping into this thread, but I'm going to add my $.02 anyway.

First, by saying that the judging is suspect, you are effectively accusing the judges of doing something that is not strictly honest. No matter how you try to say that you aren't, you are. If everything was legitamite, then there wouldn't be anything suspect, would there?

Second, Newportstorm is right, since you were not a judge at the festival, how can you speak intelligently about what they were tasting? Many people have brought up the fact that the Macro breweries were going to send their VERY BEST beers to the festival. If you think that they are going to send the same swill that Earl(no offense intended to anybody named Earl) is pounding down in his trailer, you are sadly mistaken. They are going to pay somebody A LOT of money to come in and brew a beer that exactly matches the style that they are entering. Since they have that kind of money, and the facilities, they can brew an award winning beer if they want to. Since it falls under the same category of American Light Lager, or whatever category, they can then turn around and throw a sentence on the can that says "Gold Medal Winner - GABF". The only thing that is suspect about that is why doesn't the mega brewery choose to brew that well all the time.

Finally, Meridian, the music of Yes does blow, but less than Asia.

Well, unfortunately you are wrong. I have been to the GABF more than once and the macros do send "the same swill that Earl is pounding down." Did you not read the category winners I listed in this thread from 2003? Go and look at the 2006 winners and you'll find the same thing. Their regular swill wins medals in those categories every year. You guys keep arguing, but THE DATA IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. What, do you think Miller whips up a special GABF batch of Miller Light? Are you frickin' kidding?!?!

[Jeff]

Originally posted by ratman03
What, do you think Miller whips up a special GABF batch of Miller Light? Are you frickin' kidding?!?!

Why is this so far out of reach? Miller has enough money to make a special barrel of MGD every day of the year until they get exactly what they want. Maybe Brewmonkey or other brewers can confirm or prove me wrong, but when you entered beer into the GABF did you give it a little TLC compared to standard stuff on tap?

BTW, I am not a Macro Jihadist, I just feel that if my point is not understood I will strap two cases of Old Beast to my chest and threaten the heathens.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99
I just brought in a display of the Michelob Sampler today - a 20 pack with 4 bottles each of Bavarian Wheat, Pale Ale, Marzen, Porter, and Amber Bock. Now, I'm not a fan of the Amber Bock at all, but the other four I will try. 3 of the other 4 are labeled as "all malt", so I guess that means that there is no tobacco, chemicals, or, as someone so eloquently put it, "the sh*% that they put in cigarettes". Imagine that.

Now this is funny. I was going to ask you, but instead I chose to wait for you to divulge it yourself, and now you have. You have a retail store, and you SELL product from the macro brewers. That means you have a direct economic interest in promoting their products. Given this, how can anyone take your comments in this thread at face value?

And, because you should know: Beer and liquor are not required to conform to FDA rules to list all ingredients on their packaging. That the label says "all malt" means zero when it comes to alcohol. Just because it says all malt does NOT mean that there are not other substances in the product. You are laboring under a delusion if you don't think that there are a unhealthy substances in most of the products from BMC. I have seen a partial list and it is not pretty. Ever wonder why the alcohol industry is exempt from FDA rules? Go ask the macro beer lobby. Do a little research before you come on here and pimp for Daddy Macro.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by Jeff
Why is this so far out of reach? Miller has enough money to make a special barrel of MGD every day of the year until they get exactly what they want. Maybe Brewmonkey or other brewers can confirm or prove me wrong, but when you entered beer into the GABF did you give it a little TLC compared to standard stuff on tap?

BTW, I am not a Macro Jihadist, I just feel that if my point is not understood I will strap two cases of Old Beast to my chest and threaten the heathens.

I understand what you are saying. BrewMonkey probably DID give his batches extra TLC. But he can do what he wants, because his brew isn't in bottles on retail shelves all across the country.

Why do they not make a 'special MGD'? Because they don't have to, and if they did, it wouldn't be MGD anymore! It's a commercial brand; they can't go and brew a Sam Adams clone for the festival, call it MGD, and say 'Hey, doesn't MGD taste great today?."

Look at the winner list I posted from those categories earlier in the thread. The same beers win every year for those categories, which were created expressly for so BMC could win and continue to attend the festival.

Yes, the macros do brew specialty beers for the festival, and they do occasionally win in other categories besides the aforementioned special BMC categories. But again, the fact that they do win over more deserving beers was my original point.

I'll have you know that if you strap cases of Old Beast on you that you will be strapping on a GABF medal winner. :p

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
Now this is funny. I was going to ask you, but instead I chose to wait for you to divulge it yourself, and now you have. You have a retail store, and you SELL product from the macro brewers. That means you have a direct economic interest in promoting their products. Given this, how can anyone take your comments in this thread at face value?

From what I've read on this site, hops runs a store that sells a fair share of craft beer. He also carries macro products, as those most likely sell in large volume and help him pay the bills. This allows him to carry specialty products that you and I love. To cast a store owner who sells BMC as pimping for "Daddy Macro" (?) is silly.

If craft beer were the dominant force in the beverage industry, I'm sure hops would happily line the shelves with it. It's not. Few, if any, stores can afford to run such an operation.

Originally posted by ratman03

And, because you should know: Beer and liquor are not required to conform to FDA rules to list all ingredients on their packaging. That the label says "all malt" means zero when it comes to alcohol. Just because it says all malt does NOT mean that there are other substances in the product. You are laboring under a delusion if you don't think that there are a unhealthy substances in most of the products from BMC. I have seen a partial list and it is not pretty. Ever wonder why the alcohol industry is exempt from FDA rules? Go ask the macro beer lobby. Do a little research before you come on here and pimp for Daddy Macro.

Please post such a list. It's been done in the past and though many of the ingredients have long scary names :eek: , they turned out to be widely used ingredients in the brewing/food industry. Nothing sinister. Nothing that'll kill you any faster than the alcohol in your favorite barleywine.

Flame on....

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99
Bingo. Someone who gets it (thanks Brewhoo).



Please. You make a series of baseless claims in this thread (from the compromised integrity of the GABF to the NFL fixing games, etc.), but you're *surprised* when someone challenges your proclamations? You can tell Newport and I to have a "PBR and Natty Light" tasting and post the notes (which, by the way, was so funny I wet myself - man, you could give Bob Saget a run for his money), yet think someone is hammering you every time you post? Sure. You can cry foul when someone tells you to STFU or *gasp* calls you "son", but yet it's no problem to call others "a$$hole", and gleefully announce that you're starting a "flame war"? Well, flame on, brother.

Here's a newsflash, Ratman. It ain't about you, nor me, or anyone else who has contributed to this thread. It's about the integrity of the GABF, pure and simple. Get over yourself.

What I meant was that you were starting a flame war. I'm not crying foul, but you were flaming me.

I am not making baseless claims; I am raising legitimate questions based on what I have seen at the GABF for years. Unfortunately, very few things in life are pure and simple.

Personally, I find the image of you and Newport sitting down at a table with notebooks and cans of the Beast, Michelob, PBR, etc... hilarious. I don't think I included Natty Light in my post, but by all means you guys should include it.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
From what I've read on this site, hops runs a store that sells a fair share of craft beer. He also carries macro products, as those most likely sell in large volume and help him pay the bills. This allows him to carry specialty products that you and I love. To cast a store owner who sells BMC as pimping for "Daddy Macro" (?) is silly.

If craft beer were the dominant force in the beverage industry, I'm sure hops would happily line the shelves with it. It's not. Few, if any, stores can afford to run such an operation.



Please post such a list. It's been done in the past and though many of the ingredients have long scary names :eek: , they turned out to be widely used ingredients in the brewing/food industry. Nothing sinister. Nothing that'll kill you any faster than the alcohol in your favorite barleywine.

Flame on....

If you want to find out what they put in Budweiser, use the www. As expected, the info is very difficult to find. I'm not going to do your homework, nor do I care if you believe me or not. What you choose to consume is obviously your choice, and I'm not on a crusade to stop people from drinking Budweiser. I mention the ingredient thing from time to time because it is something that people should be aware of.

[surfadelic23]

Wow, there's more conspiracy theory stuff here than on the 9/11 thread!

[hooky]

I'm willing to bet there is no such thing as make up sex at your house.

You're talking in circles. Let it go already.

[Jeff]

Here are a couple of threads where we previously discussed chemicals in beer:

http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7205&perpage=15&highlight=chemical&pagenumber=3

http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4766&highlight=amyl%2A

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hooky
I'm willing to bet there is no such thing as make up sex at your house.

You're talking in circles. Let it go already.

I don't talk in circles. I've restated my point for emphasis, because people keep offering up the same lame refutations to my argument. I realize I'm swimming against the tide here though... :rolleyes:

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
If you want to find out what they put in Budweiser, use the www. As expected, the info is very difficult to find. I'm not going to do your homework, nor do I care if you believe me or not. What you choose to consume is obviously your choice, and I'm not on a crusade to stop people from drinking Budweiser. I mention the ingredient thing from time to time because it is something that people should be aware of.

Good work. Toss out more accusations with nothing to base it on.

It could be a stimulating conversation, if you choose to actually provide some semblance of evidence. Or not.

Agreed. People should be aware of what they are consuming. Guess you won't be the one to help them with that though, eh?

I tried the web and came across this - your homepage?

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/

Cheers!

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Please post such a list. It's been done in the past and though many of the ingredients have long scary names :eek: , they turned out to be widely used ingredients in the brewing/food industry. Nothing sinister.


I'm not sure that was ever proven on all of the "allowables." And I'm not sure you can prove they're all safe to consume over long periods of time. Can you professor?

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Jeff
Here are a couple of threads where we previously discussed chemicals in beer:

http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7205&perpage=15&highlight=chemical&pagenumber=3



Last one on my list: hydroxybenzoate (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/n-butyl-p-hydroxybenzoate.html)
Scroll down to Personal Protection.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Good work. Toss out more accusations with nothing to base it on.

It could be a stimulating conversation, if you choose to actually provide some semblance of evidence. Or not.

Agreed. People should be aware of what they are consuming. Guess you won't be the one to help them with that though, eh?

I tried the web and came across this - your homepage?

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/

Cheers!

Sorry, it's not my responsibility to help you decide what to eat or drink. That's your responsibility. The information is out there.

And as usual, your contribution to this thread is an effort to discredit me. There is no point in arguing with you about anything, really, because you are a conformist by nature. Your posts continually reflect this. It's no fun debating people who always end up arriving back where they started. The discussion never goes anywhere.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by steveh
Last one on my list: hydroxybenzoate (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/n-butyl-p-hydroxybenzoate.html)
Scroll down to Personal Protection.

S.

Ever had a filling done?

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/m5616.htm

I can pretty much gurantee that stuff is in your mouth.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
Last one on my list: hydroxybenzoate (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/n-butyl-p-hydroxybenzoate.html)
Scroll down to Personal Protection.

S.

I'm sure there are plenty of substances you wouldn't want to handle consistently, without protection. Hell, that "new car smell" people seem to love may be the result of the plastics & adhesives used to build the car emitting fumes when heated.

But, because something is allowable doesn't mean BMC uses it nor does it mean craft brewers don't. I'm all for more labelling guidelines. Not necessarily on the label (WTF would it fit?) but available to all consumers like MSDS sheets.

Also, this is from one watchdog site which listed many substances allowed in food products:

"Heptylparaben.
(a) The food additive heptylparaben is the chemical n-heptyl p-hydroxybenzoate.

(b) It may be safely used to inhibit microbiological spoilage in accordance with the following prescribed conditions:

(1) In fermented malt beverages in amounts not to exceed 12 parts per million.

(2) In noncarbonated soft drinks and fruit-based beverages in amounts not to exceed 20 parts per million, when standards of identity established under section 401 of the Act (21 U.S.C. 341) do not preclude such use."

And the site you referenced had a disclaimer stating it tries to provide accurate info but hasn't verified it nor can guarantee it's up to date.

I do appreciate the link though, steve.

Cheers!

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by ratman03
Now this is funny. I was going to ask you, but instead I chose to wait for you to divulge it yourself, and now you have. You have a retail store, and you SELL product from the macro brewers. That means you have a direct economic interest in promoting their products. Given this, how can anyone take your comments in this thread at face value?

I have been in hops99's store, and I can attest to the fact that it is one of the few stores that I have ever seen where more shelf space is given to craft beers than to macros. In fact, out of the many coolers that he has, I believe only 2 or 3 were macros. The rest were filled with a fine selection of craft beers. That doesn't even count all of the shelf space that was dedicated to craft beer.

I should also mention that his store is in a college town, where cheap macros are the norm. He could probably increase his sales exponentially if he were to give up some space for more BMC products.

By the way, do you have any proof that Miller DOESN'T make a special version of Miller Genuine Draft? They can create a version of MGD that gets a little more attention(i.e. a small batch with personal attention from the brewer) and still call it MGD. As long as they don't change the basic recipe, then they are doing nothing wrong. So, why wouldn't they?

Do you think that the people running the contest go and pull a pint right from the keg at the vendors booth? No, those beers are sent by the company.

I really don't care whether or not you like the product, but when you call in to question the integrity of the judges doing a truly blind test, you are out of line. You are also out of line when you accuse a store owner, whose business that you have never been into, of compromising his principles. You have no proof, just wild accusations. And you can keep screaming and yelling about how terrible the product is, but the fact is that they keep winning the categories that they are in, because they match the style most closely. If you don't like the fact that Miller consistently wins a category, brew a beer that is a better match to that style and enter it yourself, or front the money to have another brewer do it.

Do you really think that some of the top brewers/judges in the country would say, "Ok, we'll give BMC a pass because it will bring them back to the festival."? That is ridiculous. If anything, they would be harder on them to keep them away. Do you really think that the craft beer drinkers and brewers want BMC products at the festival? Not a chance.

Since you are obviously not going to be moved from your conspiracy theory, I am done arguing this point. I'm going to watch cartoons, it makes more sense than this silliness. The Backyardigans are on.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by ratman03
And as usual, your contribution to this thread is an effort to discredit me. There is no point in arguing with you about anything, really, because you are a conformist by nature. Your posts continually reflect this. It's no fun debating people who always end up arriving back where they started. The discussion never goes anywhere.

Not trying to discredit anyone. If I were, it wouldn't be tough. You've made accusations with little (nothing) to support them.

Please don't pretend to know me based on some forum posts. I've admitted to often taking the other side of an argument just to liven things up. But I at least attempt to provide some information and/or evidence to ponder.

Cheers!

[hops99]

Now this is funny. I was going to ask you, but instead I chose to wait for you to divulge it yourself, and now you have. You have a retail store, and you SELL product from the macro brewers. That means you have a direct economic interest in promoting their products. Given this, how can anyone take your comments in this thread at face value?

Ah, the conspiracy grows. As others on this board can attest (Deco, for one) my store's beer selection is about 95% craft/micro/import and 5% "macro" - although if there was a stronger demand for macro beer I'd gladly stock more.

But, I think you're catching on to my grand scheme. I just hope you're not perceptive enough to realize that I also have the alien beings from Roswell locked in my basement, along with JFK's real killers, and Elvis, who sends his regards.

Keep on flamin'!

[MeridianFC]

You run a business that sells macro beer? You sure don't know much about business do you? You're only supposed to sell things that are cool and eventually go out of business when the micro snobs who never buy the same thing twice stop coming by because "you don't have anything new". I know I once watched a documentary on economics. At least that's how I think I remember it I wasn't really paying attention.

PS Tell Elvis I want my guitar back.

[ratman03]

Seriously, you guys really do kill me. "Give me PROOF!!! PROOF!!! I need unequivocal PROOF!!! 100% Certainty!!!
PROOF!!! PROOF!!! Blah blah blah..." Broken records never make any music.

Can't hang with the discussion won't accept proof when it's shoved in front of your faces and spoon-fed 7 different ways. Resort to the predictable name calling and distortion, as people like you always do (It's an easier alternative to using your brain). hops99 owns a store that sells BMC, and DecoJuicer is his buddy, and Newport is just trolling the thread. Pathetic.

And with that, I am out of this thread as it is a complete waste of time. -->

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
And the site you referenced had a disclaimer stating it tries to provide accurate info but hasn't verified it nor can guarantee it's up to date.

Oh puh-leeze. Like the compound is gonna change that much in 2 years. You're nothing if not antagonistic my friend. Contrary for the sake of - at all times it seems.

Let's test...the earth is round!

Jeff, I see Methyl methacrylate on that link, but not hydroxybenzoate.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

you don't reckon there was any of that stuff in that Michelob marzen I had last night do you?

Don't know if you guys caught it but I gave it roughly a B to B+.....enough to understand it medalling, satisfy my curiosity. Don't see any reason to have another but having one was instructive.

Anybody else try it? I still recommend empirical evaluation over metaphysics and philosophy and theoretical abstraction, any day.

the other categories the big guys win in, the american lager and light american lager and premium american lager etc--let them have their little playground, no skin off my nose.

But I do remember a little brewpub used to always medal in "light american lager" back in the late 90's, which I thought was, on the one hand, cool--beating the big guys in their own category--while on the other hand, why bother? why not take that skill and make a kick ass dortmunder or helles or, um, marzen.

The smallest brewer to medal in marzen this year, though, was Old Dominion, at somewhere between 25,000 and 30,000 bbl annual production....guess the economics of brewing lagers, especially lagers that ideally lager even longer than the standard 7-8 weeks, weighs against the little guy.

[steveh]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
you don't reckon there was any of that stuff in that Michelob marzen I had last night do you?

Heh, heh - hard to say, hard to say.

Don't see any reason to have another but having one was instructive.

Hmm, no reason to have another doesn't really define a medal winner.

S.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by steveh
Oh puh-leeze. Like the compound is gonna change that much in 2 years. You're nothing if not antagonistic my friend. Contrary for the sake of - at all times it seems.



Never claimed it changed. Simply quoted their own disclaimer about the accuracy of the info. This stuff could be awful for all of us in the right amounts, but it's allowable at 12 ppm.

Kumbaya.

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Kumbaya.

Uh huh.

# S22 Do not breathe dust.
# S24 Avoid contact with skin.
# S25 Avoid contact with eyes.
# S26 In case of contact with eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice.

S.

[hops99]

PS Tell Elvis I want my guitar back.

He's willing to trade - for a fried peanut butter and banana sandwich. Wait, make that two.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by steveh
Jeff, I see Methyl methacrylate on that link, but not hydroxybenzoate.

S.

The point I was attempting to make is that a compound that may seem extremely dangerous at first glance is highly useful when used properly. Methyl mehtacrylate is used to make fillings for your teeth. But when you read the link it is harmful if swallowed, absorbed through skin, bad for the eyes and should not be inhaled. It is flammable and an explosion danger. But if you have a filling this is in your mouth.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by ratman03

And with that, I am out of this thread as it is a complete waste of time. -->
And those if us providing reasoned, logical discussions that you seem to crave can resume doing so. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until you responded affirmatively to my post stating that the Macros brew special batches, and then posted two days later with a rant claiming that the macros could never do that. Agree or disagree, but please be consistent.

As for the American and American Light lager categories being created just for the macros, that is certainly not the case. These beers predate the previous century. Like it or not, these (plus "California Common") are really the indigenous North American beers. Most of the beer styles we have are more the result of folks trying to make the best beer they could with the waters they found and the grains and hops that would grow well within ox-cart distance of the brewery.

North America came with relatively soft river waters, six-row barley, hops and yeasts mainly from Germany (thanks to German immigrants who wanted to continue to brew in the new land) and corn to cut the high protein in the six-row to palatable levels. With only such readily available ingredients, American Lager is the obvious product.

If it were not for the ease with which people travel , we'd never know that there were pale ale, stout, wiezen, bohemian pilsner, and other varieties that were the "natural" beer to make in different regions of the world. It is also the low cost of worldwide shiping that lets the Chicago craft or home brewer make a pale ale with Maris Otter or a Bohemian Pils with Saaz hops.