What a tool

[DecoJuicer]

My wife and I took the kids out to the apple orchard today, and decided to stop somewhere for dinner afterwards. We went to a restaurant that I have passed dozens of times. My step daughter had been there, and she said that the food was really good.

We went in and looked at the menu. The prices were a bit on the high side, but the food looked decent. We weren't much in the mood for "gourmet" though, so we all stuck with burgers.

I ordered a venison burger, and it was pretty good, but my wife ordered a buffalo burger and it was rare on one half and well done on the other. It also tasted odd. I should add, that my wife really likes buffalo, and does know what it is supposed to taste like. The server was really cool, and replaced it with a club sandwich without a problem.

This place had a VERY impressive wine list, but as usual, the beer list was lacking. About the best they had was Sam Adams. When we were almost down with dinner, I asked to talk to the manager/owner for a minute. I told him that he had a very impressive wine list, and an excellent selection of top shelf liquors behind the bar, but his beer selection was a bit lacking(I actually put it a bit more tactful). Right away, the guy got defensive. He said that when a regular comes in and starts asking for a different beer, he'll start ordering it. Then he asked me what was wrong with his selection.

I was diplomatic, and told him that while he had some good beers, there was room for a lot more GREAT beers that were made right here in Michigan(I didn't mention that this place prides itself on having the freshest local ingredients). I mentioned Founders, Michigan Brewing Company, New Holland, Bell's, Dragonmead, and even Great Lakes.

I could actually see his eyes growing dim. Then he started lecturing me about how quickly beer goes bad, and after all, "I just added Stella Artois". The he said, and I quote, "On tap, we have Bass, Harp, and Guiness, the three best beers on the planet. Everythjing else is downhill from there"

That was the moment I just said, "Ok, thanks." And filled my mouth with french fries.

Then this tool started lecturing Erica about how she must not be used to eating real buffalo, because his buffalo meat is the freshest that you can get. And there is no way that the meat was bad, so it must be her perception. I kept trying to get him away from the table before I, or my wife, lost our temper. He just wouldn't leave.

This guy was such a condesending jerk, that I finally looked up and said, "That's great, can you please send the waitress by with the bill." He took the hint and disappeared. As we were walking out, my wife made sure that he knew we wouldn't be back.

Now that I made a short story long, I'll end by saying that the place is called The Old Stone, and it is in Washington Twp, MI.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[gestyr]

So Deco...

Please don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel. :)


I feel your pain. I have had experiences like this in the past and they do nopt get repeat business from me. One restaurant my wife and I went to had a waitress who was extremely rude and impatient with an older couple. We let the manager know and he was totally indifferent. I let him know that I had better places to spend my money.

[dparsons]

He must have a hard time keeping good employees.

[cewldre]

When I first saw the title, I thought you were talking about me....

Man, I can't believe that..... Ok, yes I can. Not to steal the thread, but I once suggested to a bar manager of a local pub with a decent tap selection that it could be better. She replied, rather rude like, that she would only put a beer on tap if it sold a ridiculous amount in bottles first. Needless to say, my suggestions have yet to be implemented. Sigh.

You're not alone Deco. We keep fighting the good fight. We will win some battles and lose some. Sadly, we must mark this as a loss. Don't get discouraged. You're comrades are still by your side pushing for you.

[DecoJuicer]

I knew that I lost that battle when he refered to Bass, Harp, and Guiness and the "three best beers on the planet."

Needless to say, I won't be back.

There is hope though. They put in a restaurant/bar right around the corner from me, and the last time that I was in there, the owner expressed real interest in adding some craft brews. Might be time to drop in on him again. I also heardthat a new place down the road is serving Dragonmead FInal Absolution on tap. I really need to stop in there and check that place out.

[steveh]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
I knew that I lost that battle when he refered to Bass, Harp, and Guiness and the "three best beers on the planet."

You could have referred to Beringer White Zinfandel and Boones Farm Granny Apple as the 2 best wines on the planet - I'm sure that would have gotten his attention.

S.

[newportstorm]

While I can understand some reluctance to add new items and agree that regualr patrons requesting items might take precedence, it wouldn't cost that much to add a few cases of craft brew to the cooler, advertise them for a month and see how they do. The most the owner would be out is $100 (if none sold).

I read that this place is owned by a couple of chefs? So sad that they pride themselves in using the freshest, top quality ingredients in their dishes and put thought into their wine list, yet buy into stereotypes about beer and the people who drink it:

From the site:
"A man in jeans drinks a beer out of a bottle--while at the table next to him there are folks eating a sophisticated pan-seared tuna and enjoying a bottle of Napa Valley Cabernet..."

This list could be much better with just a couple of additions of local favorites. Hell, if Michiganders haven't heard of Bell's Oberon or Two Hearted, they need to open their eyes.

http://www.theoldstone.com/?beverages

Email the restaurant and, tactfully, let them know how you feel. Link this thread if you think it would help.

Cheers!

[cewldre]

here's the real deall though... you get craft beer on tap because a craft enthusiast suggested it. That craft enthusiast has friends who he tells about it. Friends go, buy craft beer on tap, then repeat. Well, as I said, I have tried myself to get more craft on tap at a pub... Managers think we're some small sect and they wont sell enough. When you try to tell them that craft enthusiasists would hear about there place and start flocking there, they refuse to believe it. There loss I suppose.

[kinjar]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
I knew that I lost that battle when he refered to Bass, Harp, and Guiness and the "three best beers on the planet."


My favorite Irish place in Virginia replaced their Bass and Harp taps with their own (actually brewed by Old Dominion Brewery) Irish Ale and Irish Lager.

Fantastic change of pace for the typical Irish selections.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by cewldre
here's the real deall though... you get craft beer on tap because a craft enthusiast suggested it. That craft enthusiast has friends who he tells about it. Friends go, buy craft beer on tap, then repeat. Well, as I said, I have tried myself to get more craft on tap at a pub... Managers think we're some small sect and they wont sell enough. When you try to tell them that craft enthusiasists would hear about there place and start flocking there, they refuse to believe it. There loss I suppose.

Getting a draft line isn't always cut and dried. Some establishments agree to reserve xx amount of draft space for certain brewery's products - usually macros. Sometimes, the draft towers, window etching, glassware, mirrors, line cleaning service, etc. is offered complimentary for agreeing to such a deal. So....while it would be nice to see more craft beer on tap, unless the demand is so strong that a second draft tower is needed, and isn't paid and spoken for by a macro/macro distributor, any new craft beer offered on tap would simply be replacing an existing craft beer. Not that having a rotating craft selection isn't nice, but it isn't ideal to us here either.

A couple cases of craft beer costs little and is up to the discretion of the owner. Not taking that risk seems silly to me.

Cheers!

[ZSK]

I'm always glad when someone else takes one for the team! My wife and I try to take short trips a few times a year and you never know where we'll end up. Now I know to stay away from this place.
They list Blue Moon in the "Import" section of the menu. I think these people are ignorant about beer and probably think it is a second class citizen compared to the expensive Bordeaux they mention.
Deco, we all owe you one. How were the apples?

[wortchillergoal]

I too can understand an owner's feelings about trying something new. Yet, any person in a food service industry has to know that tastes of the public changes now and then. I have an example of the opposite frame of mind and it worked.

My Fri night hockey team and I got tired of going to the same bar feeling that our business wasn't appreciated. We wen't to another place. Our late arrival grabbed the attention of the baretender/owner. Heasked what a large group was doing coming in so late and we told him anout being a hockey team. He said, I hope you guys come every Fri as I would like to have you.
so we started going there. he had no beer to speak of, so after the second week, I asked if he would please bring in a case of Pete's Wicked and I promised him it would be gone by the end of our hockey season. He said ok but was not thrilled about it.

Two months after that he could not keep enough Pete's in the cooler and he would also carry a couple of Shipyard's beers as well. I would not be selling all this beer if it weren't for you he told me. Imagine that.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by ZSK
I'm always glad when someone else takes one for the team! My wife and I try to take short trips a few times a year and you never know where we'll end up. Now I know to stay away from this place.
They list Blue Moon in the "Import" section of the menu. I think these people are ignorant about beer and probably think it is a second class citizen compared to the expensive Bordeaux they mention.
Deco, we all owe you one. How were the apples?

I noticed that Blue Moon was listed under imports too. I wondered if he thinks being from out of state makes it an import.

The apples were good. We got a bag of the honey crisps, and a half gallon of cider. I'm going back for more cider next week so that I can make a hard cider.

[cewldre]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Getting a draft line isn't always cut and dried. Some establishments agree to reserve xx amount of draft space for certain brewery's products - usually macros. Sometimes, the draft towers, window etching, glassware, mirrors, line cleaning service, etc. is offered complimentary for agreeing to such a deal. So....while it would be nice to see more craft beer on tap, unless the demand is so strong that a second draft tower is needed, and isn't paid and spoken for by a macro/macro distributor, any new craft beer offered on tap would simply be replacing an existing craft beer. Not that having a rotating craft selection isn't nice, but it isn't ideal to us here either.

A couple cases of craft beer costs little and is up to the discretion of the owner. Not taking that risk seems silly to me.

Cheers!

I was by no means trying to say it's easy, otherwise we'd see a lot more craft beer. I was trying to say that craft beers have their followings and people are willing to drive miles to get craft beer on tap.

[hooky]

Our favorite pizza place has the beer prices listed with domestic and import. The imports include SA, Killians and Blue Moon.
:D

It's always a carry out so we go come back home to where the good beer is.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by hooky
Our favorite pizza place has the beer prices listed with domestic and import. The imports include SA, Killians and Blue Moon.
:D

It's always a carry out so we go come back home to where the good beer is.

the best (worst, really) is when you see that and then Heineken is on the domestic list.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by cewldre
I was by no means trying to say it's easy, otherwise we'd see a lot more craft beer. I was trying to say that craft beers have their followings and people are willing to drive miles to get craft beer on tap.

Of course we do, but we are also in the vast minority. But unless an establishment has paid to purchase, install and clean all of their equipment, many draft lines may already be spoken for, with no wiggle room. Technically, it's illegal in many states, but it happens anyway.

There are those beer bars that flat out refuse to carry macro beers. Best one I can remember was the Portsmouth Brewery (brewpub in NH, owned by Peter Egelston, who also owns Smuttynose Brewing Co.). From an earlier thread about the topic:

"Anyway, the owner, Peter Egelston, told the arrongant A-B rep "no thanks" when he was opening his pub. The rep said he'd never survive without his products on tap. Peter told him to go pound sand and never looked back. Well, thirteen years later, the Portsmouth Brewery is going strong serving only its beers, that of its sister company (Smuttynose Brewing), a local farm cider and an occasional guest tap, like Sierra Nevada Bigfoot. It can be done and I love when it is!"

Cheers!

[kinjar]

Originally posted by HogieWan
the best (worst, really) is when you see that and then Heineken is on the domestic list.

I was in a bar several years ago where the beer was listed by the color of bottle - green, brown and clear. I thought that was creative. Of course, I don't remember the name of the bar, so I guess the gimmick didn't work that well.

[Mill Rat]

I was at the Plano, IL Oktoberfest last weekend, and spoke with Ed, the owner of the Wurst Kitchen, the sponsoring restaurant and sausage shop, and complimented him on having only authentic Deutsch beer (DAB, H-S Oktoberfest, and (OK, semi-authentic) SPG on tap. No BMC is sight. His reply was that he found that without the BMC around, the folks that give beer-drinking a bad reputation just didn't show up, and made for a much more relaxed and fun event.

[zoom6zoom]

I knew that I lost that battle when he refered to Bass, Harp, and Guiness and the "three best beers on the planet."

Uranus?

[denver brewhoo]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Getting a draft line isn't always cut and dried. Some establishments agree to reserve xx amount of draft space for certain brewery's products - usually macros. Sometimes, the draft towers, window etching, glassware, mirrors, line cleaning service, etc. is offered complimentary for agreeing to such a deal. So....while it would be nice to see more craft beer on tap, unless the demand is so strong that a second draft tower is needed, and isn't paid and spoken for by a macro/macro distributor, any new craft beer offered on tap would simply be replacing an existing craft beer. Not that having a rotating craft selection isn't nice, but it isn't ideal to us here either.


Nice thoughtful post, Newport. I should remember this, but have you ever been in the business or are you just a knowledgeable customer?

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
Nice thoughtful post, Newport. I should remember this, but have you ever been in the business or are you just a knowledgeable customer?

A bit of both. I've seen the "evil A-B reps" in action, peddling their wares to secure draft lines. Sadly, to many bar owners....$$ talks, craft beer walks.

Cheers!

[xtalman]

I was in a bar one time, this was about 15 or so years ago, and the Coors sales guy was there pushing Killians claiming it was on par with Harp and much cheaper. Which at the times it was. This was before Killians was swithced from an ale to a lager.

[dparsons]

Seems to me the key isn't arguing with a closed-minded bar owner who is unwilling to make a change. Its about finding a place and person with a friendly, open attitude (generally go hand in hand) and going there. Its hard to find a place with a good atmosphere. If a place with good atmosphere and good beer already exists where you live, you're there. If it doesn't you can encourage it. Somebody else made the suggestion of finding a place with an atmosphere you like, frequenting it, bringing your friends, and then asking the owner to carry more craft brew stock - a case or two initially. As wortchillergoalie found out, the owner took a chance on his customers and was surprised by the result.

If and when the closed-minded, swill selling owners loose enough business or decide they don't like their clients they will change. And before they reach that realization, arguing with them is like beating your head on a brick wall. It feels so much better when you stop.




I'd really like to see something like English pubs take root here. I spent a week in London and it was so much more pleasant in some of their pubs than in most of the bars here.

[DecoJuicer]

I think that part of the problem is HOW MUCH we as craft beer drinkers consume.

BMC drinkers will set around a table downing pitcher after pitcher watching the game, while most of us are content with enjoying the flavor of our pint, and keeping ourselves (fairly) sober. Since we don't drink our beer ice cold, it sits for a few minutes while it comes to a respectable cellar temp, then we don't down the whole pint in one pull. We have a little more invested in our beer than macro drinkers. They never think about ibu's, or aroma, or mouth feel, or lacing. They think, "is this cold enough?"

I know that there are a lot of generalizations there that don't hold true for everyone, and I certainly do realize that not all macro drinkers are drunks that have chug-a-thons.

Bar owners know that they can easily out sell craft beers, so they stock what they think people want, and what they can move the most of.

Now, a GOOD bar owner will keep a supply on hand to offer people a choice, but I think that good bar owners are few and far between.

[Seymour]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
I think that part of the problem is HOW MUCH we as craft beer drinkers consume.

BMC drinkers will set around a table downing pitcher after pitcher watching the game, while most of us are content with enjoying the flavor of our pint, and keeping ourselves (fairly) sober. Since we don't drink our beer ice cold, it sits for a few minutes while it comes to a respectable cellar temp, then we don't down the whole pint in one pull. We have a little more invested in our beer than macro drinkers. They never think about ibu's, or aroma, or mouth feel, or lacing. They think, "is this cold enough?"


I amaze myself with how thick-headed I am sometimes. That's a very good point, Deco. Can't believe I never thought of that before.

When I was twenty and didn't know better, the goal was to see how fast we could get through this pitcher so we could order another. Nowadays it is rare indeed for me to order a second pint, or even--gasp--a third. Even though craft beers are more expensive, I doubt joe barman is making as much off me as he is off the six college kids over in the corner playing quarters.