Oxidation and Primary

[Helium]

I've read loads of posts about the 1-2-3 method.
Tried my first brew - from a complete recipe from beer-wine.com, and it was OK, if a bit....tangy.
So I thought it was because I rushed it.
On my second batch, a lawnmower, I did the 1-2-3, and bottled it last night.
The gravity readings were where the recipe stated, etc. but it too has a tang to it.
Went to the beer-wine shop today, and they couldn't believe I left it in primary for a week.
So what's the story?
I have an ESB that just went from primary to secondary, again after a week, 5 days, and I'd rather not have the same thing happen again.
Mind you, the beer isn't bad, but clearly isn't right.
And please, don't tell me to just RDWHAHB, as this is also like $40 a wack I'm wasting.

[Mad Scientist]

If they could not believe you primary'd for a week, what did they recommend that you primary for? I am curious as I do this for most beers up to about 1.075 O.G.

At any rate, the tangy flavor you describe sounds like that good old 'extract twang', which is common in extract based beers. It does not sound like an oxidation issue, that would be a more of a card-boardy taste. Did you use liquid or dry extract? All extract or mini-mash? IMO, I got more of that flavor with dry as opposed to liquid, but you also get the flaovr in old or imporerly stored liquid. Who are you buying from? In addition, what is your fermentation temp? Give us details!

[toneyc]

Might also just be that green beer taste. Let it age for another week and see if it gets better. It does get better as it ages, it is usually about the time when I'm saying to myself "This is the best beer I've ever tasted!" and the next sound I hear is the keg going dry, about 4 weeks after it got kegged.

:)
Toney.

[dparsons]

The starting point is to id the "tangy" flavor. It could be extract twang as Borne suggested, particularly if the extract is older. It could be new beer that just needs to age as Tony suggested. (Note aging for 2-3 months is not to long.) Both those are likely. It could be wild yeast. It could a other things. If you can give more detail on the flavor that will help. Try http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html for a description of off flavors and see if any of them fit well.

I'd also take Borne's suggestion and ask your LHBS what their thinking is with regard to 1 week. That is a very common time for primary fermentation. Perhaps they are thinking you are bottling immediately after?

[Helium]

I'm using a kit from my shop that comes with 2 3.3lb cans of light extract, a rice packet, vs. grains, hops, irish moss, and very detailed directions.
This is one of the shops many recipes, all pre-weighed out, etc.
They're telling me it's tangy and it's oxidized, the link says it's just not done, and that oxidation is carboardy, which it's definietly NOT.
So I guess I just have to wait.
On the '1 week in primary' issue, he said a week (7 days, but I meant 5 days) was too long since the extra air in the bucket and the large surface area of the wort.

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Helium
I'm using a kit from my shop that comes with 2 3.3lb cans of light extract, a rice packet, vs. grains, hops, irish moss, and very detailed directions.
This is one of the shops many recipes, all pre-weighed out, etc.
They're telling me it's tangy and it's oxidized, the link says it's just not done, and that oxidation is carboardy, which it's definietly NOT.
So I guess I just have to wait.
On the '1 week in primary' issue, he said a week (7 days, but I meant 5 days) was too long since the extra air in the bucket and the large surface area of the wort.

You might remind him that the air in the bucket is puged by CO2 during primary fermentation. And with the air purged out, the surface area of the wort is irrelevant. What might make a difference is if you had opened the bucket before racking.

BTW, Once Never open a contained for fermenting beer if I can't help it....only for racking.....

[corkybstewart]

Is this a real homebrew shop or just a place that sells someone else's homebrew products? I'd be leery of a homebrew store owner that was nervous about a week in primary and who didn't understand that there is no free O2 in the primary headspace on a closed ferementer. It doesn't sound like he knows anything about homebrewing at all.

[Helium]

No, it's actually been around quite some time, and the guy who runs it at least claims to brew.
I had told that I opened it to check on the progress a couple of times, so maybe that was his problem.
They make all their recipes in house, and brew in the shop as well.

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by Helium
No, it's actually been around quite some time, and the guy who runs it at least claims to brew.
I had told that I opened it to check on the progress a couple of times, so maybe that was his problem.
They make all their recipes in house, and brew in the shop as well.

If you're talking about Beer-Wine in Woburn, MA then they've been around forever. I'm not making any comment on this individuals experience one way ot the other but the business is no fly-by-night. They were around when I started 20 years ago and are one of the original shops, pre-dating just about all of the bigger retailers that exist today.

BTW, this may be a simple as an ingredient not to your liking. Example: I don't care for fresh Saaz flavors in my beer, nor am I fond of certain light British crystal malts. There are a couple of yeast like Coopers I likewise can't stand -- tastes like raw bread dough to me. I can pick all three of this out in just about anything they appear in. Just sayin...

[Mad Scientist]

Well, we should be careful about how we drag this store owners name throught the mud, lest we get flamed by an irate store owner :D

On the other hand, for most 'normal O.G. beers', regardless of the time spent in secondary or if it just goes straight to keg, one week generally seems to be the right amount of time required for primary fermentation, and for the yeast to drop. For me rarely does this happen in less than five days.

[Helium]

Yep, it's the shop in Woburn, and they've been great. It's this one weird thing that's got me questioning.
As for the malts, I forget which brand they are, but it's not coopers. It's a red metal can with yellow-ish text on.

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by Helium
Yep, it's the shop in Woburn, and they've been great. It's this one weird thing that's got me questioning.
As for the malts, I forget which brand they are, but it's not coopers. It's a red metal can with yellow-ish text on. \

Muntons. Largest extract producer in the world, that I know of anyway.

[Otis_The_Drunk]

Sounds like three thing may have come into play here, Extract Twang, Green Beer (meaning that it may need to age a little while) and Fermentation temperatures.

[Helium]

Fermentation temp is almost a constant 70*.
The Boston climate is too all over the place to keep it anywhere else, as the basement rarely gets hotter than 70*, or cooler than 60*, and that's in a frigid winter or scorching summer.

[OrionBrew]

Originally posted by Helium
They're telling me it's tangy and it's oxidized

From my understanding, yeast are great oxygen scavengers. Unless you managed to introduce a significant amount of O2 into your beer, the yeast should take care of most, if not all of it in a bottle conditioned beer.

I recently brewed my first batch and introduced some air in the process. I was concerned about oxidation, so I did a little research on it, but I could be wrong. Anyone?

[dparsons]

You would have a difficult time getting your beer to oxidize in a week. And it has the wrong flavor. Like you said before, let it condition for a few weeks (won't taste good on bottling night) and see. I'm convinced that the hardest part of brewing is waiting on the beer.

[Mill Rat]

Relax a little and give yourself some slack. If you make beer, not vinegar, the first time out, you have got your sanitation basics down, and in the end, nothing is more important than that. Nothing can ruin beer like poor sanitation. Oxidized, schmoxidized. Give it a few weeks to condition and I think you'll be pleased with your results. You can improve your techniques as you continue to brew. So load up the brew kettle and get another batch underway!

[dparsons]

So load up the brew kettle and get another batch underway!

That's the best advice I've heard in a while! :)

[Helium]

Nope, never any vinegar, not even close.
The first batch, a generic amber from the shop, went down well at a party, and I've got a few bottles left over that I'm cold conditioning to test out.
The the summer ale - the tangy one - I'll leave in the bottle for another week before I test one and then start refridgerating them.
Can't take up the whole fridge though!
I'm bottling my ESB tonight, checked the grav last night, and it's almost spot on, and actually smells really good, like an ESB should.

One thing, my basement temp has dropped by 3 degrees in the last day.

While it shoudn't ever go below 60, is there a limit or temp that will really affect fermenting time?

[Otis_The_Drunk]

a 3 degree fluctuation wouldn't make any noticable difference

[Helium]

a 3 degree fluctuation wouldn't make any noticable difference

No, what I meant was, basically, how cold can it get before I run into fermentation problems in general?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Helium
No, what I meant was, basically, how cold can it get before I run into fermentation problems in general?

depends on the yeast strain. as long as the lowering of temp isn't too sudden, the yeast will likely just slow down. However, a quick drop in temp will cause them to go dormant

[corkybstewart]

Do like I do-when the temp gets too low for fermenting ales switch to lagers, they require the cooler temperatures. SOme yeast seem to go dormant at 65F, some do best at or below 65F, it really depends on the strain.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Do like I do-when the temp gets too low for fermenting ales switch to lagers, they require the cooler temperatures. SOme yeast seem to go dormant at 65F, some do best at or below 65F, it really depends on the strain.

To summarize/paraphrase corky, just switch/choose yeast strains to work with the temps you have.

[Helium]

Ahhh.... So I can use a lager strain, but still brew an ale then?

[corkybstewart]

What I meant was that if the temp gets too cold for an ale, say 50-55F use a lager strain because the ale yeast just won't ferment at that temp. In the upper 50's I suppose some ale yeasts can work, I personally don't know of any but I'm sure somenone here does. I use a lot of Belgian yeasts and they'll go dormant at 60 if not warmer. But upper 50's is above the optimal temp for most lager yeasts. In a nutshell 55-60F is kind of a problem zone in my opinion-too warm for lagers, too cool for ales.

[HogieWan]

I know nottingham dry yeast will go down to 50 - so that fills in that "hole"

If you use lager yeast - you're making a lager. Ale yeast and you're making an ale. The recipe can be the same otherwise and the final product will be similar, but you can't brew an ale with lager yeast. That's like drawing a square with three sides - it's a contridiction of terms

[Helium]

So if I have an IPA recipe, and use lager yeast, it's now IPL?

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Helium
So if I have an IPA recipe, and use lager yeast, it's now IPL?

Sure! It's homebrew - it's whatever you want to call it. There are lots of ways to make something that is "beer" that doesn't fit into any defined style. A highly-hopped lager is a pretty good idea, though

[Helium]

Just bottled my ESB.
It's AWESOME, even when flat and warm.
A bit bitter, but I guess that's in the name, but tastes like one you'd get in a pub.
Anyway, it tastes great now, so I guess it'll be even better in 3 weeks or so.
Also just tasted my first brew, the amber that was a bit tangy, and after 2 weeks in the dark basement, and another in the fridge, it was really good. Kind of a cross between Bass and Newcastle, both of which I like a lot.
So I guess the 2nd batch, the lawnmower, that tasted tangy does just need to condition.
We'll see in 2 weeks....

Next up, a Celtic Red Ale, and a version of a friends custom IPA, which I will be making in an IPL.

[corkybstewart]

Brew on Helium, it sounds like you're hooked. Years from now you'll look back and wonder what your life could have ben if you had just quit brewing.

Actually for me I brew, I live for beer, my vacations revolve around beer, and I have a huge brewing library, but I drink half the beer I did when swill was good enough. So maybe this is a step in the right direction.

[Helium]

OK, so it's been a couple of weeks.
As I said before, the ESB rules, and is even better then when I bottled it, as you would expect. I'm guessing the the bitter taste is the hoppiness of it? It's not a bad bitter, but it's there. I'm thinking that it'll mellow out a bit the longer it waits.
However, that damn lawnmower I did still is tangy. Now, it could be part of the recipe. It is a summer ale. It almost reminds me of a Sam Adams Summer, or maybe a Harpoon Summer, but I know those have grains of paradise in, and this only had rice powder (?), light malt extract and hops, no grains at all.
It's not bad, and maybe I just don't like something about it, but that slight tang bothers me.
I've got to get through 40 bottles of it!

[markaberrant]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
In a nutshell 55-60F is kind of a problem zone in my opinion-too warm for lagers, too cool for ales.

Sounds like a perfect temp for brewig Hybrids. I've used 2565 Kolsch and 1007 German in this range, even down to 50F once fermentation has started.

1056 also works best close to 60F, and the seasonal Rogue Pacman is also recommended for 60F.