Octoberfest beers

[jlttb]

It's that time: what new Octoberfests are good? The new Sam Adams is, well, ok -- what's better?

[steveh]

Here's my ratings of this years' offerings that I've tried:

1. Spaten
2. Capital
3. Hacker-Pschorr - Though I'm not convinced I've found a 2003 batch yet.
4. Sprecher
5. Hofbrauhaus - Of the lighter, fest style served at the Munich grounds.
6. Sam Adams - Not too bad, a little on the roasty side as G.I.
7. Goose Island - Too roasty, might as well be a brown ale.
8. Beck's - aw c'mon, I HAD to! ;) But it's not that good.

I still need to find some of this year's Paulaner, and I'm not sure if Lowenbrau is exporting an Oktoberfest to the U.S.

S.

[jlttb]

Thanks!
I had the Brooklyn Octoberfest last night, and our local Blue Point Brewing Octoberfest (in a growler). The Blue Point had more of a nice mouth feel and a bit more flavor to it, though I'm partial to any beer that comes in a giant jug.

[steveh]

Follow up on some Oktoberfests:

I found some Paulaner with a drink/enjoy by date of 11/03 at one store and 5/04 at another. Believe it or not, there was some significant difference. I found the same with some Hacker-Pschorr Oktoberfest dated 7/03 and 3/04. The older batches of both beers taste somewhat sharp, not quite phenolic - but not smooth. The newer batches are much better and could create a 3-way tie at my number one spot with Spaten - but that would only be appropriate, wouldn't it?

Seeing the dates on the Paulaner and H-P, I guess it's safe to assume that both breweries are making Oktoberfest year round?

I also picked up some Summit Oktoberfest. It seems that the U.S. micros (except Capital) all have an Okt. recipe that calls for roasted malt. Wonder who led them astray?

S.

[quantum24]

H-P, paulaner, and spated are always pretty good, i tend to like the paulaner the best even though it can be a little sweet. the brooklyn is pretty good this year but i liked last years more. the big dissapointment for me was victory fest beer, it is not their best beer by any means (but do try the moonglow weizenbock if you can find it, its fantastic)

[threecb]

I'd have to say Spaten and HP were tied for first with me. Haven't tried the Paulaner yet. Of the American versions I tried the Ramstein O-fest from High Point Brewing in NJ on Saturday at the brewery. It was nice, drinkable, along the lines of Spaten, but not quite as good. But close -- must be the German roots of HPB. Also had the Weyerbacher AutumnFest. It was a little bigger than most, with spicy-fruity notes. Solid beer, but probably lowest on my list.

[steveh]

I've noticed that the German Oktoberfests are very susceptible to different temperature ranges this year. I'm sure they always are, but this year seems more noticeable. The Spaten seems very subtle in flavors, but comes alive as it warms.

The Paulaner is somewhat "sharp" or astringent when too cold and becomes maltier as it warms. I also notice a bit more hop flavor in the Paulaner and some diacetyl in the Spaten's nose.

The H-P becomes maltier and sweeter (the sweetest of the big three IMHO) as it warms, and has a bit of the same sharpness the Paulaner has when colder.

I need to grab some Capital and Sprecher for a reassessment before they're gone, they were the first I'd tried this year.

S.

[threecb]

When I was checking out with my Spaten and Weyerbacher the guy behind the counter made comments on the H-P that are very similar to yours, steve...i think I have to get me some.

I'm going to a beer dinner tonight at the Pizzeria Uno (look, don't laugh, it's the only one that has a microbrewery on premises and the brewer is very talented!) and he's supposed to have his O-fest going on, and he's bringing in 3 other German beers. All german menu, too.

Yeah. In a PU. It's the first time I'm going to one here, but I've heard they're decent. And if the beers good...:rolleyes:

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
I'm going to a beer dinner tonight at the Pizzeria Uno (look, don't laugh, it's the only one that has a microbrewery on premises and the brewer is very talented!) and he's supposed to have his O-fest going on, and he's bringing in 3 other German beers. All german menu, too.

Hey - Uno's is a Chicago tradition, I wouldn't laugh! Of course, even the franchised Unos in the 'burbs around here can't match the original downtown...but none of 'em are brew-pubs!

I hope it's a good time...just don't tell me they're making bratwurst pizza!! :P

S.

[jlttb]

I had the Paulaner on tap tonight, and it did have a malty taste, but a bit of a flat texture. I'll have to try some more before I pick a favorite.

[steveh]

Hmm. Flat texture in the Paulaner, did it hold its head long? I'd wonder if it's being tapped properly.

More follow-ups: I tried a second Summit Oktoberfest last night - after a Paulaner bottled Okt., I'll add - and it seemed a bit less roasty than my first sampling, a bit smoother, definitely malty. A result of my taste buds being lulled by the Paulaner? Maybe, but I have 4 more bottles of Summit to experiment with!

S.

[threecb]

I had brewer Mike Sella's O-fest last night at the Uno beer dinner and it was a decent offering. Nice, malty with a hint of sweetness. A little too cold to get a full flavor profile. Either that or the Heavyweight Sticknjab Alt that went with the course before was beating on my tastebuds!

[steveh]

Three, Just where is this Uno's? I'd like to see the brew-pub trend spread to other Unos, especially with great brew-masters as you have.

S.

[threecb]

It's the only Uno's in the chain that's got a brewery on premises and it's in Edison/Menlo Park, NJ (but corporate calls it Woodbridge, which is one town over). Mike, the brewer, sat with my wife and I during the dinner, and graciously answered my many questions.

As for why there aren't more PU's with Breweries, I had heard a rumor that this was supposed to be a prototype brewpub that was created when the craze hit in the early 90's. By the time they got to making decisions, the startups were decreasing and many were closing during the late 90's fallout, so they didn't expand the concept. Mike's been brewing there 5 years and producing great beers that are well received (except by a couple of a-holes on Pubcrawler), so they decided to leave this one in tact. He couldn't confirm anything about this except that the location is doing well and they've no plans to change (a good thing!).

BTW, i'm partial to his Ike's IPA, but had his Gust n Gale Porter with a Chocolate Cappuccino Cake for dessert and it was INSANELY good!

[hops99]

Steve is right. I am also interested in the roasted malt Oktoberfest characteristics that are found (seemingly) in many American micro O's these days. Goose Island, New Glarus, and Sam Adams (in years past) all have the same roasted flavor - that being said, I really like the style of the beer, but I agree that it's not a traditional Oktoberfest (although I've felt the past two years that the Sam Oktoberfest had devolved into a Michelob Amber Bock clone...blecchh...and I hope it has returned to its old form this year).

Should we call these roasty O's "American" style?

[steveh]

While the Association of Brewers describes the American style of a Marzen/Oktoberfest as having a comparatively greater degree of hop character, Goose Island outwardly admits to using "black malts" (black patent?) in their Oktoberfest recipe - as well as more hops than a usual Oktoberfest. We all know the malted-roasty bitterness black patent adds to Guinness stout.

My theory is that the craft-brewers are trying for the toasty, biscuit flavor that is common in an Oktoberfest (Spaten and Paulaner particularly, and Summit as well), but are going after it with the wrong ingredients. Maybe toasted malts are seldom used in other recipes and they always have some roasted malt on hand, so they utilize that for their recipe? The roastiness is just too harsh in an Okt. for me.

I opted for the Summit Okto over the New Glarus last weekend, but I'll be trying the New Glarus soon. And the Sam's Okto is far less roasty than G.I., plus I remember that the Sam Okto was good on tap last year - better than the bottled, and nowhere near Mich Amber Bock (wotta joke that brew is).

Anyone tried the Leinie's Okto? I'm almost afraid...

And Threecb, I'm jealous for your Pizzeria Uno, but I think I'll grab my growler and head to Mickey Finn's Brew-pub to sample their '03 Okto tonight.

S.

[threecb]

Hmmm, whatever you call it, I don't mind it too much. I think besides the "roastedness" of the American versions, there's a "spicier" character (maybe that's from the roasted or black malts?) that isn't as dominent in the Germans, except maybe H-S.

And the Sam O is decent on Tap -- had it last night. Doesn't really have these "American" characteristics we're talking about. Still doesn't rank with anything I've had this year, but it's drinkable. I've gotta pick up a Brooklyn O-fest sixer and get that in for comparison.

This is probably my second-favorite style beer, so, in the interest of science, I'll try as many as I have to to find the best!

[Bacchus]

If I´m not mistaken, the Walnut Brewery in Boulder, Co is tapping their Oktoberfestbier today, can´t wait to try it! It was very good last year...
And...the Oktoberfestbier at Gordon Biersch is on it´s way, always a beer to count on!

Being German one might think I´d prefer the "real" Oktoberfest-biers, but I must say I love trying all the special micros around!

[jsmurphy]

While on the subject of O' fest beers, my Red Ale homebrew, which started out hoppy like a SNPA, has changed characteristically into more of a malty brew which reminds me of a Hacker-Pschor, even the copper color.

So now I call it my O'fest brew! :D

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bacchus
And...the Oktoberfestbier at Gordon Biersch is on it´s way, always a beer to count on!

Oh yeah, GB does up a great Okto. I wish they'd open one of their restaurants in the Chicago area.

But I did hear through the grapevine that Hofbrauhaus is planning restaurants in Chi and Milwaukee...yes, THE Hofbrauhaus!

Prosit!
S.

[Bacchus]

Ah....lucky me...I can almost see our GB if I look out my office window...my favorite Friday after work place!

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
Hmmm, whatever you call it, I don't mind it too much. I think besides the "roastedness" of the American versions, there's a "spicier" character

That spicier character is probably from the hops - the Ami Oktos are known for being hoppier than their German cousins too (go figure, huh?). I think a German Okto has 25 IBUs at it's highest - Goose Island claims 30 for its Okto.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bacchus
Ah....lucky me...I can almost see our GB if I look out my office window...my favorite Friday after work place!

TEASE!! ;)

S.

[Bacchus]

Sorry....couldn´t help myself...;-)!

[threecb]

Is their Okto the same as their Marzen, which is, what I thought, one of their standards? It's a stand-alone seasonal? Are they trying to trick us!?!?

If it's the same or as good as the Marzen, I'm jealous too!

...and steve, I guess that's why I like the domestifests -- hophead and all! :p

[Bacchus]

I was in at GB the other day and they told me that their Oktoberfest was currently being brewed. I can´t recall trying it last year, but seeing it´s GB, it´s bound to be good, how different from the Märzen though, I´m not sure.

Ah...look what I found...

http://www.gordonbiersch.com/beer/festbier.html

[fidcastro]

Anyone here tried Lowenbrau's Oktoberfest?

I'm going to the Big Bear Lake Oktoberfest this weekend, and the website claims that the Lowenbrau (that they will be serving) is the same beer served at the Munich Oktoberfest.

Anyone know if this is true?

[steveh]

Originally posted by fidcastro
Anyone here tried Lowenbrau's Oktoberfest?

I'm going to the Big Bear Lake Oktoberfest this weekend, and the website claims that the Lowenbrau (that they will be serving) is the same beer served at the Munich Oktoberfest.

Anyone know if this is true?

The only time I've had Lowenbrau's Oktoberfest is in Munich. I haven't seen it here in the States this year, and Lowenbrau is now being imported from Munich - not contract brewed in Milwaukee or Canada.

If the beer you're being served is the same as served at the Lowenbrau tent, it will be very light in color, yet still malty, full-bodied (if not too cold) and flavorful. Around 1992 or so, the Munich brewers started serving a much lighter colored "fest" beer at the Oktoberfest. The Hofbrau Okto available over here is an example of the brew. Capital's "Fest" is a good example as well.

I've yet to discover why the breweries changed from the traditional, coppery colored Marzen style for the Fest - but I can deduce it may be a cost saving strategy - why brew a beer with more expensive malts for drunken revelry (for people who are drinking only to get drunk) when we can brew a pretty decent, less costly beer - and save the better stuff for more appreciative, reflective moments.

However, as we've discussed, the big three still export their traditional Marzen/Okto to the States...maybe because they know we suckers will pay $8 a six-pack? ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
Is their Okto the same as their Marzen, which is, what I thought, one of their standards? It's a stand-alone seasonal? Are they trying to trick us!?!?

If it's the same or as good as the Marzen, I'm jealous too!

I think 'Becca-Bacchus is right, GB makes the Marzen year-round, but brews up a special Okto for the season. I love their Marzen, even have people bring me sixers back if I know they're going to be near a GB. But I've yet to sample their Okto - Bacchus, please give us a full report, maybe even a comparison against the Marzen.


...and steve, I guess that's why I like the domestifests -- hophead and all!

And that's probably how the Ami Okto/Domestifest evolved! Damn hop-heads! ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
It's the only Uno's in the chain that's got a brewery on premises and it's in Edison/Menlo Park, NJ (but corporate calls it Woodbridge, which is one town over). Mike, the brewer, sat with my wife and I during the dinner, and graciously answered my many questions.

Well, I headed over to my (closest) local brew pub, growler in hand - anticipation on my mind - to sample their latest Oktoberfest. Just a little disappointing I'm afraid. Mickey Finn's in Libertyville, IL brews some great beers year round - their Oatmeal Stout rivals Young's. But they always seem to have trouble with lagers - go figure, being a harder, more complicated brewing process.

Well, at first taste the Okto was thin-bodied and had a real "flowery" taste to it. Hmm. I had suspicions that the wrong hops had been used or maybe the primary ferment had been a little warm. Malts came through in the flavor, but couldn't bolster the thin mouth-feel.

I tried warming the beer in my hands, and that helped a bit. The body seemed to build and more sweet and toasted malt came through in the flavor. However, the flowery flavor held - even became astringent. I started to wonder if, maybe, the brew was a little too young? Maybe needed a bit more lagering? Dunno, any thoughts?

It was a sad growler that left the pub empty. Maybe a weekend trip to NJ is the answer? ;)

S.

[Bacchus]

I´ll be happy to try the Festbier at GB for you and give you a report...just got to figure out when it is finally ready...apparently they are running late.
However I tried the Walnut Brewery´s Oktoberfest last night and really liked it! It´s got a nice rich flavor...very tasty now that it is getting colder!

[steveh]

Well, it *is* a dirty, thankless job, but someone has to do it! Glad to see you're willing to take one for the team, Bacchus! ;) I bet I could twist your arm from here!

Funny that it's a little late - probably have to finish one brew to make a spot for the other, maybe you could help with that too!

S.

[Bacchus]

When it comes to beer...no twisting needed! :-D

Well...as far as I understand, GB was planning to hold on to their Vienna longer than they did, nothing left, and so they didn´t start brewing the Fest in time. So...no, I can´t help them finish it...:-(! But I like the Märzen more anyway, so I´m happy!

[steveh]

So wait, GB has their Märzen, an Oktoberfest, AND a Vienna? Now I *am* getting suspicious. I hope they're not making one big batch then cutting it to adjust per style! :P

S.

[Bacchus]

Hm...is this a big conspiracy???? Never thought of it that way...

Hi hi...I'm pretty sure we can be safe when it comes to GB, seems like those guys know what they're doing...

My coworker just brought me in coupons for GB...wasn't that very nice of her, someone looking out for my weel-beeing...

[threecb]

Originally posted by steveh
Well, at first taste the Okto was thin-bodied and had a real "flowery" taste to it. Hmm. I had suspicions that the wrong hops had been used or maybe the primary ferment had been a little warm. Malts came through in the flavor, but couldn't bolster the thin mouth-feel.

I tried warming the beer in my hands, and that helped a bit. The body seemed to build and more sweet and toasted malt came through in the flavor. However, the flowery flavor held - even became astringent. I started to wonder if, maybe, the brew was a little too young? Maybe needed a bit more lagering? Dunno, any thoughts?
S.

Bummer that your local didn't live up...Sounds like that "domestifest" phenom that we've been discussing. Appeasing the aggressive American hop palate. But the "astringent" bite you're describing sounds like it could stand to age at least another week or two, but it could be "selzer burn". Is it force-carbonated (or whatever that term is!)? In any case, maybe you should go back in a couple weeks and try again!

I was camping up in Lake George NY this weekend (hence the timespan before replying!) where I stopped into the Adirondack Pub and Brewery. I really like this place, and really like his Oktoberfest. Filled a growler 3 times over the weekend, including stopping on the way out of town. So now I have a growler of Fest at home, and I am psyched!
I also had Saranac O-fest in bottles. Okay, nothing too exciting. Not a very robust Fest...

So, Becca, when are you gonna use the coupon and sample the GB Fest!?! Inquiring steves want to know!

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
Bummer that your local didn't live up...Sounds like that "domestifest" phenom that we've been discussing. Appeasing the aggressive American hop palate. But the "astringent" bite you're describing sounds like it could stand to age at least another week or two, but it could be "selzer burn". Is it force-carbonated (or whatever that term is!)? In any case, maybe you should go back in a couple weeks and try again!

I was thinking the same thing - if there is any left. Pretty sure it's not selzer burn, they're pretty good at sticking to traditional brewing methods and I'd bet it's been Krausened in the true sense of the word.


I was camping up in Lake George NY this weekend (hence the timespan before replying!) where I stopped into the Adirondack Pub and Brewery. I really like this place, and really like his Oktoberfest. Filled a growler 3 times over the weekend, including stopping on the way out of town. So now I have a growler of Fest at home, and I am psyched!
I also had Saranac O-fest in bottles. Okay, nothing too exciting. Not a very robust Fest...

Cool to have a brew-pub near by the camp! I'm headed to Wis. the first weekend in Oct. for camping and the Quivey's Grove Beer Fest! They have 20 or so brew pubs and micros represented and it's become an annual pilgrimage for us.

I've had Sarnac's brew before - not sure about the O-fest, though. Don't they have a Maple Porter?


So, Becca, when are you gonna use the coupon and sample the GB Fest!?! Inquiring steves want to know!

Indeed! Can I have your friend's number? ;D

S.

[threecb]

They do have a maple porter, or used to. I've seen it in the variety pack that they put out at xmas...they're a decent mid-priced alternative when funds are low. An this year's Hefe was excellent! They've made a place for it in their permanent Summer seasonal lineup...

[GlugGlug]

For me, the best O-Fest beer i've ever had really, is the Spaten .

mmmmmmm .

As you may know, Interbrew bought ought Spaten recently and it is possible that the quality of all Spaten beers will suffer/degrade as a result ...

I'm buying up as many cases of OFest and Optimator as I can .

[steveh]

While the Optimator may cellar well, I can only attest that I've kept a few cases of Spaten Okto throughout a winter and a summer season (got a great deal at the end of October because the liquor store didn't think the Okto would sell after then - fools).

Sorry I can't offer any more duration info than about 10 months, there was no way beer that good could last. ;)

Here's hoping Interbrew won't try to fix what ain't broke.

S.

[hops99]

Anybody try the Tabernash Okto? I've seen it in my local store, and it's one of the few Okto's I haven't sampled in the last few years. Is it worth 7 bucks and change?

[jlttb]

Okay, here's my quick scorecard of everyone's comments on the '03 Octoberfests to date -- please weigh in with additions! Among the Europeans, it looks like Spaten is the favorite, with Hacker-Pschorr and Paulaner. Among the widely distributed Americans, I'm not sensing any big enthusiasm, though. Is that right?
The micros have their supporters--but it's tough to test em head-to-head. I added in the towns for the Micros to make sure I had the right names.
I still have to try my local Black Forest Brewing Octoberfest, but I'll be going in a much wiser O-fest drinker!

European
Spaten
Hacker-Pschorr
Paulaner
Sprecher
Hofbrauhaus
Beck's
Lowenbrau

American
Sam Adams
Brooklyn
Saranac
Gordon Biersch
--has anyone had Harpoon O yet?

Micros
Blue Point -- Long Island, NY
Capital -- Middleton, Wisconsin
Goose Island -- Chicago
Summit -- St. Paul Minnesota
New Glarus-- Wisconsin
Victory -- Downington PA
High Point Brewing Ramstein--Denver Co
Pizzaria Uno--Edison, NJ
Leinie -- Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin
Mickey Finns -- Libertyville Il.
Walnut Brewery -- Boulder Colorado
Adirondac -- Lake Placid, NY
Weyerbacher -- Easton PA

[steveh]

Beck's over Lowenbrau? I haven't tried this year's Lowenbrau, but it would have to be pretty sorry to have Beck's beat it out - I thought the Beck's was pretty lame - took regular Beck's over it as my second beer that evening.

And Sam Adams' at the top of the micros - over Gordon Biersch? While 'Becca Bacchus hasn't graced us with her review, I've tried GB's Okto in the past and they'd really have to be dropping the ball to have Sam surpass them.

While I think I'll need to get me some of that Blue Point, I'd actually have to put Summit over Goose Island this year.

BTW - Sprecher should be in the second category, definitely above Sam in rank. Randy Sprecher, as well as his brewery, is Milwaukee born and bred! ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hops99
Anybody try the Tabernash Okto? I've seen it in my local store, and it's one of the few Okto's I haven't sampled in the last few years. Is it worth 7 bucks and change?

Based on this review: http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/index/date/all/Tabernash/10 It sounds like the Tabernash was fermented a little warm this year.

S.

[threecb]

Originally posted by jlttb

High Point Brewing Ramstein--Denver Co

Adirondack -- Lake Placid, NY


A couple corrections:

s/b High Point Brewing Ramstein -- Butler, NJ

Adirondack Pub & Brewery-- Lake George, NY
(not the Great Adi... in Lk. Placid)


and steve, I think jlttb is just recapping everything that's been mentioned in the thread, not ranking. I wouldn't put SA at the top of the Regionals, and i'dve put Weyerbacher higher in the list of micros...

[jlttb]

No, there was no implied ranking on the listings. Just trying to get everything out on the bar, so to speak.
Thanks for the corx on the brewpubs!

[steveh]

Originally posted by jlttb
No, there was no implied ranking on the listings.

Sorry! My misunderstanding.

S.

[jsmurphy]

I just tried the Craftsman Oktoberfest on tap at Lucky Baldwin's. It was OK, but not malty enough for my idea of an O'fest brew.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jsmurphy
I just tried the Craftsman Oktoberfest on tap at Lucky Baldwin's.

Does that come with a lifetime warranty and advice from Bob Villa? ;)

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jlttb
Okay, here's my quick scorecard of everyone's comments on the '03 Octoberfests to date -- please weigh in with additions!

To the European list we can now add Kostritzer's Fest beer. I sampled it from draft last night at The Chicago Brauhaus. A golden beer, darker than the Hofbrau fest beer, but lighter than Spaten or Paulaner or HP. Malty nose, malty flavor - clean finish with a sweetish aftertaste. Quite good and a good lead-in beer to a darker Okto.

S.

[jlttb]

I just put together a mini-tasting of bottles of Harpoon, Spaten and Sam Adams Octoberfests for myself. (An exercise I highly recommend.)
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the Harpoon really stood out as my favorite -- flavorfull, balanced, lively. The Sam was fine, but just... less. And what is the word for that tangy bite in the Spaten-- is that esters? Anyway, it didn't work for me like the Harpoon.
Very happy I've got five more Harpoons. Well, four-and-a-half... make that four...

[hops99]

See, I agree that the Sam Adams Okto is light (just tried my first '03 bottle a couple of nights ago). In fact, I believe it's much lighter than it used to be a few years back. I recall the Sam Okto back in '98 - '99 had more of an "American" (as we've identified it here) chracteristic for an Okto - that is, a roasted malt flavor that dominated the brew. I think sometime in '00 or '01 the recipe might have changed to reflect a more traditional Okto; the problem is, I can barely detect the malt in this brew these days, and it tastes (to me) like macro crap.

I've usually defended Sam Adams products on this site and elsewhere, but I can't recommend the Sam Okto anymore. Anyone else thinking along the same lines, or is it just me?

[steveh]

I have saved a bottle of each Oktoberfest I've bought this year (including the out-of-date bottles) and plan on holding a side-by-side sampling with some friends.

Tanginess in the Spaten? Hmm, I tried a bottle of Spaten alongside a bottle of Paulaner (dated 7/03 - BTW, what's with all of this old beer floating around?) and decided that the Spaten is still my favorite. I found it smoother and more subtle in its malts, whereas the Paulaner was almost too sweet - again, a bottle (jeez - a whole 12 pack) whose expiration date was a bit off.

I've never tasted tanginess or esters in the Spaten Okto, there's the slightest diacetyl in the nose, but it doesn't come thru in the flavor. Is it possible you bought a six-pack of last year's brew, or maybe it was too cold?

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hops99
I've usually defended Sam Adams products on this site and elsewhere, but I can't recommend the Sam Okto anymore. Anyone else thinking along the same lines, or is it just me?

To me the Sam Okto was just "okay." Definitely not as roasty as the Goose Island Okto, but not as flavorful as Capital's (to keep the comparisons at Micros). However, past experience has shown me that the Sam Okto has been much better on tap than it has been in the bottle, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it that way yet.

BTW - Speaking of macros, I saw something repulsive yesterday - Michelob Oktoberfest!! Now, I didn't dwell at the poster (in fact, I turned and ran), so I'm not sure if it was advertising a new Mich flavor, or just suggesting we serve Mich as our Oktoberfest beer - I just groaned, made a face, and turned toward the micro aisle.

S.

[skahtboi]

Originally posted by steveh
To the European list we can now add Kostritzer's Fest beer. I sampled it from draft last night at The Chicago Brauhaus. A golden beer, darker than the Hofbrau fest beer, but lighter than Spaten or Paulaner or HP. Malty nose, malty flavor - clean finish with a sweetish aftertaste. Quite good and a good lead-in beer to a darker Okto.

S.

I was perusing this thread again to see if anyone had tried Kostritzer's offering. I noticed yesterday that my local "real" beer vendor has the Kostritzer Oktoberfest in and was thinking about giving it a try. Guess I will have to now, to report on it in its bottled form!

[hops99]

Michelob Oktoberfest. Bleccchhhh.....

OK, I just had my first sip of the most unusual Okto I've seen in my local beer store here in Ohio. It's a swing-top Altenmunster Okto, brewed and labeled for the the Dayton Art Institute. It's actually quite good, comparable in my mind to Spaten or Capital.

[hops99]

And I might add that there is no better day to enjoy an excellent Okto than a late September Sunday afternoon - cooler, with temps in the 50's, and the leaves starting to show a hint of color.

Life is good.

[jlttb]

Originally posted by steveh

I've never tasted tanginess or esters in the Spaten Okto, there's the slightest diacetyl in the nose, but it doesn't come thru in the flavor. Is it possible you bought a six-pack of last year's brew, or maybe it was too cold?

S. [/B]

You're right - I let a Spaten bottle sit outside the fridge for a half hour before opening and drinking and it was much smoother and more enjoyable. I could still smell that 'tang' when I first poured it, but it wasn't there in the taste like it had been last night.
That's diacetyl?
Thanks for the tip!

[steveh]

Adding to the Okto list: One of my locals has Lake Front, Sprecher, Capital, Hofbrau, Paulaner, and Spaten on tap.

Of the 6 I hadn't tried Lake Front yet; nice copper color, white head (that didn't stand up long - but I sort of blame the dispensing, the venue's beers never seem to hold a head), malty nose, clean malty flavor with a hint of hops. Quite good.

Sprecher and Capital mirrored their bottled Oktos. Paulaner was interesting as it was lighter, but still coppery, than its bottled variety, and less malty in flavor. Interesting. Sampled about an ounce of the Spaten to compare with the Paulaner. Spaten has been pretty consistent this year, bottle to draft. I had a couple 1/2 liters at two different spots in Chicago Friday night, quite good.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jlttb
You're right - I let a Spaten bottle sit outside the fridge for a half hour before opening and drinking and it was much smoother and more enjoyable. I could still smell that 'tang' when I first poured it, but it wasn't there in the taste like it had been last night. That's diacetyl? Thanks for the tip!

Half an hour? How cold *is* your fridge? Also, what sort of glass are you drinking from? I have some tall 1/2 liter Spaten glasses that are great for allowing the aromas out and seeing the color. But I also enjoy using my clay krugs for an authentic sampling feel.

Diacetyl is a buttery to butterscotch nose and flavor. ESBs and Scotch ales often have diacetyl tones. Esters impart a fruity note. I imagine you could be picking up a slight hop nose in the Spaten, but I haven't experienced that in any I've sampled this year, just the slightest diacetyl that does not over power at all.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by threecb
Bummer that your local didn't live up...In any case, maybe you should go back in a couple weeks and try again!

Stopped in yesterday and asked for an Okto sample - immediate phenol astingency in the initial sip, jeez. It smoothed into some nice maltiness - so it *is* evolving, but I couldn't get past the phenol enough to ask for a whole glass - or growler.

S.

[ratman03]

Originally posted by hops99

I've usually defended Sam Adams products on this site and elsewhere, but I can't recommend the Sam Okto anymore. Anyone else thinking along the same lines, or is it just me?

No, it's definitely not you. I tasted this year's Sams Okto and was shocked at how weak it was. Years ago, Sam's Okto used to be
rich and malty; now it tastes weak and uninspired.

I will mention, however, that I recently tasted Sam's Double Bock and was quite impressed. It puzzles me how they'll still make a real Bock but then chicken out in October.

[threecb]

Originally posted by steveh
Stopped in yesterday and asked for an Okto sample - immediate phenol astingency in the initial sip, jeez. It smoothed into some nice maltiness - so it *is* evolving, but I couldn't get past the phenol enough to ask for a whole glass - or growler.

S.

Man, what a shame...

[Bman]

I brought home a 6 of Octoberfest from Paper City in Holyoke,MA when I was in CT. I checked the drink by date-which is December-man this is bad stuff-I hope that I just got a bad batch-I wil try another beer when I can-

Love the Octoberfest from St.Louis Brewery & Tproom in my hometown.

[jlttb]

Just tried the Saranac Octoberfest and found it good: smooth, malty, pleasant, drinkable--no off tones. It can certainly hold it's own with the similar-but-pricier Sam and Brooklyn.

[BluesHarp]

Originally posted by steveh
Adding to the Okto list: One of my locals has Lake Front, Sprecher, Capital, Hofbrau, Paulaner, and Spaten on tap.

Of the 6 I hadn't tried Lake Front yet; nice copper color, white head (that didn't stand up long - but I sort of blame the dispensing, the venue's beers never seem to hold a head), malty nose, clean malty flavor with a hint of hops. Quite good.

Sprecher and Capital mirrored their bottled Oktos.
S.

Agree on the Lakefront...I don't remember being dissapointed by any of their beers (and they have the best damn brewery tour you ever saw...around five bucks for about as much beer as you can drink and a complimentary pint glass!)).

The Capital...are you referring to their "Fest" beer or their "Autumnal Fire"???

[skahtboi]

Went to one of my favorite pubs last night, where upon my arrival they cheerily pointed out that they have the Sam Adams Oktoberfest Ale on tap, so I decided to give it a try. I was disappointed. It had a very weak malty flavor and little else to comment on. It was sort of like a malt flavored water. Sad.

Fortunately, before I went there I had stocked up on some decent beers, including three Oktoberfest beers I have yet to try. Spaten, Hacker Pschorr, and a Pumpkin Ale from Buffalo Bill's Brewery. I will let you know how these fare!

[steveh]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
The Capital...are you referring to their "Fest" beer or their "Autumnal Fire"???

Okay, I know this could get confusing because Capital has a summer beer they call "Fest," and they have an "Oktoberfest." Both good beers, along with the Auntumnal Fire (which is technically a Doppelbock), but the tasting session I was referring to included the Capital Oktoberfest - whew, that make sense? The Autumnal is on tap at the Firkin, but I was driving...

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by skahtboi
Went to one of my favorite pubs last night, where upon my arrival they cheerily pointed out that they have the Sam Adams Oktoberfest Ale on tap,

Did they really refer to it as an ale? Unless it's another new brew from Sam they offered you, their Okto is a lager. Concerning its lack of flavor and body, I hope they weren't serving it too cold. My local has switched from Beamish to Guinness on their tap and they're serving it waay too cold and the flavor suffers.

S.

[steveh]

My local store had a new 5 liter home tapper of this beer on its shelf, so I snapped it up for a camping trip this past weekend.

The beer Lowenbrau chose to provide in their keg is of the newer, lighter colored variety being served at the Munich Wies'n lately. While light in color, it's still a malty, clean beer with light hopping and more alcohol than the average Munich Helles.

This is a good beer, and I half expected the newer style Okto in the keg, but I make no secret that I enjoy the traditional, amber Marzen Oktoberfests more. This could be the perfect beer for those looking for more flavor, but still can't make the jump into a darker beer.

S.

[Bacchus]

So...went to Gordon Biersch last night...tried the Festbier...
It´s good, it really is, but it didn´t have me jumping up and down screaming for more...after one I went back to drinking the Märzen again...
Agreed, my expectations for GB are high, and probably this beer might have seemed outstanding at another brewery, but...
ah well...I´m going to the Walnut for their Oktoberfest instead!

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bacchus
So...went to Gordon Biersch last night...tried the Festbier...
It´s good, it really is, but it didn´t have me jumping up and down screaming for more...after one I went back to drinking the Märzen again...

Where have you BEEN young lady? We've been worried SICK! ;)

Can you give us a descrption of the GB Oktoberfest? Maybe a comparison to the Märzen?

S.

[Bacchus]

Mostly working on the Mugclub at the Walnut...me and my friends favorite hangout...just because...and trying to find good beer upstate NY.
The Festbier was a little bit watery and not as tasty as the Märzen. I´m not really good at putting tastes into words...I just know what I like and not...;-)!
Maybe it´s just that I like darker and "spicier" beers better...hm...you know what, think I got to go back to GB for a second tryout...poor poor me...

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bacchus
...hm...you know what, think I got to go back to GB for a second tryout...poor poor me...

Okay everybody, one big BOO-HOO for Bacchus! ;)

So, from what you've said, the Okto is lighter than the Marzen? If I recall, and it's been a while, the Marzen was a deep copper to brown color, malty in the nose with little hop note. But not as malty in flavor as some of the Munich Oktoberfest Marzens, closer to a Vienna style beer.

There's a review of the GB Fest Beer at Beer Advocate.com, but it's dated last February - and who knows how different the Fest is at each GB? Okay - road trip!

S.

[threecb]

BOO-HOO!
(there's mine!)

Sounds like the Fest at GB is trying to be more like what the German brewers have started producing and/or exporting. Personally, it seems like I'd like the Märzen better...only GB i've been to was in Honolulu, but i've heard other locations are better (i didn't think HI GB was bad, mind you...)

Bacchus, As for Upstate NY -- where were you seeking the beer, and did you find it?
I'm from NJ, and my wife and I often travel throughout NYS on beerquests...

[Bacchus]

Yeah...I´d say it starts getting a little bit more "German" ...

Well, I went to a wedding in the Catskills and didn´t really have a lot of time, but while driving around in the area I kept my eyes open for places, just to stop in for a pint, but no luck...I should have searched the area before I went.

[threecb]

The Catskills Region is a real beer desert for the most part, so you didn't miss too much...

The Guilded Otter, though, in New Paltz, is a nice oasis in that region...

[Bacchus]

Remember passing New Paltz...and actually I was there in ´89....ooops, way before drinking age...ah well! Next time!

[steveh]

Adding Pete's Oktoberfest to the sampling list; poured a deep amber to almost orange color with a thick, tan, yet short lived, head. Nose had hints of malt and hop, but nothing rich or tempting. The flavor was malty with hops in the aftertaste, but the flavor followed the path of the head - short lived and rather lackluster compared to other Oktos available.

Now here's the kicker, the label advertises the beer to be a "Bavarian Celebration Style Ale." Um, someone ought to tell the Pete's folk that there's no such style as a Bavarian Celebration Ale. Fests and Marzens are strictly of the lager genus. The closest you may find is a specialy brewed Weizen, but we all know that's a horse of a different color - and flavor!

S.

[Bman]

I hope to visit New Paltz and Hyde Park for some beer next weekend-

[threecb]

I've been to both the Guilded Otter in New Paltz and Hyde Park Brewing, both make decent beers, but the Otter is a cooler place, IMO...The Otter should have their Marzen style O-fest on, so have fun and report the findings back here!


And steve, not too surprised about Petes...they used to make decent beers until a little before Slosberg sold off...

Hopefully, this weekend i'll get to some SouthEast Festbiers as I'm heading down to Knoxville for the Brewer's Jam...

[ratman03]

Originally posted by steveh


Now here's the kicker, the label advertises the beer to be a "Bavarian Celebration Style Ale." Um, someone ought to tell the Pete's folk that there's no such style as a Bavarian Celebration Ale. Fests and Marzens are strictly of the lager genus. The closest you may find is a specialy brewed Weizen, but we all know that's a horse of a different color - and flavor!

S.

Par for the course from this BS brewer. They have the audacity to
bottle a beer and call it Pete's Wicked Ale when it isn't Pete's Wicked Ale anymore! It's the same old story: Brand name gets bought out and product goes down the crapper. Some genius in marketing probably came up with the Bavarian Celebration thing...

[steveh]

Originally posted by ratman03
Par for the course from this BS brewer. They have the audacity to
bottle a beer and call it Pete's Wicked Ale when it isn't Pete's Wicked Ale anymore!

While I'm not disagreeing with you at all, how do you explain the gold medal for Scottish-Style Ale and silver medal for English-Style Brown Ale at this year's GABF?

I recently tried the Wicked Ale after having not sampled it in years and found it a mediocre beer in flavor and body, at best. I don't know what's going on at the GABF.

S.

[steveh]

I tried the Hofbrau (Munich) Oktoberfest on draft last night. Very, very light golden color. Not thin looking lite beer-like, more along the lines of a Pilsner Urquell. White head, not terribly long lasting. Rich malty nose. Very malty, but not heavily sweet, flavor with subtle hop flavor in the finish. Very tasty stuff.

The color may turn some people off - I know the head bar-tender at my bar has said that some folk have given the beer back because they thought they were served from the wrong tap. But this beer is worth a try - mighty good. The U.S. "big three" could learn a lot from the Hofbrau brewers - if they ever wanted to.

S.

[hops99]

Now that we're deep into October, I've had the chance to try several Oktos - Hacker, Altenmunster, Sam Adams, Saranac, Otter Creek, Capital, New Glarus, Goose Island, Schlafly, and some local ones as well, but the best (IMO) is the Spaten. The Hacker, Altenmunster and Capital are close behind, but the Spaten wins the gold.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hops99
...but the best (IMO) is the Spaten.

Of the 6 Oktoberfests my local beer-bar has kept on tap since late September, the Spaten is the one that's run out!

Where have you found the Altenmunster? I don't think I've ever tried that and would like to.

S.

[hops99]

One of my local stores had the Altenmunster Okto swing-tops. It's odd, because the label shows the Dayton Art Institute - but the ribbon shows that it's an Altenmunster "Premium" Okto, brewed and bottled by Privatbrauerei Franz Joseph Sailer - Marktoberdorf, Germany.

I guess the Art Museum must've had some kind of festival, and served/sold these Altenmunsters with their label on them, which shows me that they've got impeccable taste!

Anyway, I live about two hours north of Dayton (around Toledo). I can look for some more of the bottles for you if you'd like - I bought my bottle about three weeks ago, so I hope there's some still floating around. It really was an excellent Okto.

[steveh]

Originally posted by hops99
Anyway, I live about two hours north of Dayton (around Toledo). I can look for some more of the bottles for you if you'd like - I bought my bottle about three weeks ago, so I hope there's some still floating around. It really was an excellent Okto.

Thanks for the offer, but I'll check a local store first, that usually carries a wide variety of imports. The swing top sounds familiar on a few beers I saw there lately (no, I wasn't checking out Grolsch!), but I probably didn't recognize them as Oktoberfests.

Thanks for the info, and stay tuned!

S.

[skahtboi]

The Spaten and Hacker-Pschorr Oktoberfest beers are both quite good, but I am currently drinking one I have never had before that just might take the cake.

Ayinger Oktoberfest-Marzen is a wonderful brew. It pours creamy and cloudy, almost like a Hefe. It has a very good nose to it, and upon tasting it you are hit at once with a very complex and rich malt/wheat flavor, kind of hard to describe, followed by a slight hint of hoppiness. Very clean aftertaste. This could quite possibly be "the beer" of Oktoberfest for me! I am off to finish this one, then possibly head to the beer store to get some more.

If you can find it at your local beer purveyor, I definitely recommend this one!

[steveh]

I agree on Ayinger, it has historically had a good Oktoberfest -- but it really isn't supposed to be cloudy. I hope your store is keeping its beer properly, and I hope that wasn't an old bottle.

S.

[skahtboi]

If it was old, it sure was tasty to be old! And it was cloudy. The store that I purchased this beer from is notorious for rotating out old stock, so unless a distributor sold them an old product, then I would think that it was this year's Okto brew. However, one never can be too sure.

Hmmm...the more I think about, maybe I need to go buy several more and closely inspect each of them!

[steveh]

Originally posted by skahtboi
Hmmm...the more I think about, maybe I need to go buy several more and closely inspect each of them!

I found that one of my local stores, that stocks a lot of imports, had the Ayinger Okto on its shelves - and on sale at $1.99 a half-liter bottle. Suspiciously inexpensive? Well, I couldn't find an "enjoy-by" date anywhere, but the beer looked clear through the bottle, so I grabbed a couple.

Later last evening, after sufficient chilling, I poured the bottle into a tall, half liter, German bier glass - golden to slightly amber color, thick white head (that lasted a good length of time), and yes, very cloudy - I saw it as more of a chill-haze, as homebrews will tend to have. Since the beer was pretty clear thru the bottle before chilling, I'll call it that.

The nose was malty with the slightest of hops coming through as well as diacetyl. There was also a citrus note, suggesting a warmer fermentation - or possibly slight contamination.

The flavor was malty with strong caramel notes, yet tangy in a citrus or even yeasty manner. The beer reminds me of the Keller or Zwickel biers I've sampled in the Franconia area of Southern Germany. These are traditional, hazy, unfiltered lagers that harken back to the days before clear drinking vessels.

While I enjoyed the beer, I don't think I can consider this an Oktoberfest, let alone a Marzen. The Merchant Du Vin (importers of Anyinger beer) web site says nothing of the Keller-style characteristics, but I see at Beer Advocate that someone has reviewed an Ayinger Keller sampled in Germany and the description fits the Okto I had. Hmm. Very curious.

S.

[jsmurphy]

I celebrated Oktoberfest at my favorite little Pub yesterday. I had the Paulaner, Spaten, Hacker-Pschorr and the Sierra Nevada, all on tap, all goooood... ;)

[jlttb]

I finally got into my local Black Forest Brew House (http://www.blackforestbrewhaus.com/index.shtml) to try out their Octoberfest, and loved it - flavorful, full bodied, very drinkable. My two favorites have been my two locals-- the Black Forest and the Blue Point (http://www.bluepointbrewing.com/). Freshness seems to go a long way with Fests.
A question, though: why do Octoberfests --taps and bottles alike -- seem to have such poor head retention? Anyone else notice that?

[steveh]

Originally posted by jlttb A question, though: why do Octoberfests --taps and bottles alike -- seem to have such poor head retention? Anyone else notice that?

That's a good question. I've experimented by making sure that I have a nice clean glass - and you're right, the Oktos tend to "go flat." Although, they're really not flat - there's plenty of carbonation in there and a good swirl will bring the head back, as well as bring out the malty aromas.

I suppose we can be happy to know that the good Okto brewers aren't using any head retention chemicals to poison their beers. I wonder if a light addition of some wheat malt would be enough to help out the head and not alter flavor.

I'll have to dig out some of my old Munich pictures to see if our Mass' are holding a good froth.

S.

PS - it's good to know that some locals are carrying on a good tradition!

[BluesHarp]

O'fest beers do tend to be relatively lightly hopped, and hops are a factor in head retention...maybe that is a factor?

[steveh]

Originally posted by BluesHarp
O'fest beers do tend to be relatively lightly hopped, and hops are a factor in head retention...maybe that is a factor?

Is that for sure? I mean, it would make sense in a Pilsener, and U.S. Pale Ales tend to be pretty heady - but we all know that English Ales are pretty low in carbo, but many are highly hopped.

One of my home-brewing partners always uses about 1/8 lb. of wheat malt in his recipes (5 gals) for head retention. It doesn't effect flavor or color and seems to do a good job.

S.

[steveh]

Thanks to a great trade with Fretlessman, I had the opportunity to sample yet another Oktoberfest beer, Tabernash of Longmont, CO.

The beer was a very deep reddish copper color with a light tan head. The nose consisted of a very bready, yeasty aroma - but not fruity at all. Very clean and malty.

The flavor was quite clean, very malty in a toasted bread flavor with subtle caramel - very nice, no roastiness evident at all. Hops were just recognizable in the finish.

Mouthfeel/body was on the medium side. The head thinned, but actually kept a slight crest throughout consumption.

I must note that this beer reminded me of Lakefront's Okto on tap, a good comparison. I wish I had more!

S.

[BluesHarp]

Originally posted by steveh
Is that for sure? I mean, it would make sense in a Pilsener, and U.S. Pale Ales tend to be pretty heady - but we all know that English Ales are pretty low in carbo, but many are highly hopped.

One of my home-brewing partners always uses about 1/8 lb. of wheat malt in his recipes (5 gals) for head retention. It doesn't effect flavor or color and seems to do a good job.

S.

I think most of the English ales are very low in carbonation to begin with, so there is less head to retain...the wheat malt idea is intriguing; I might try it in one of my next brews.

[Herb Ninja]

I got 6 bottles of koestritzer oktoberfest. I didn't expect very much to be honest, shipped all the way to Maui from Germany and still a reasonable price $ 7.50 6-pack. Heres my amatuer review: Not too hoppy, decent aftertaste, smooth yet a little bland, slight/medium head retention, not the best smell in the bottle but seemingly better after it warms a bit in a glass. A very slight caramel flavor. Doesn't have very much alcohol flavor, my guess is that its 5%abv or less. Can't find any websites to confirm alcohol percentage. The label is kinda attractive, not the best but it beats most mass-produced beers. I would recomend trying it if you could find it at a better price then what I paid.

[threecb]

So I had a chance to try 2 more O-fests...

Otter Creek Oktoberfest (Middlebury, VT) in bottles - Medium body with a nice head that disappated quickly to a slight foamy ring that hung on 3/4 of the glass. Fairly hoppy, more so than most i've tasted this year, with a little bit of a sharpness in the finish. Not much in malt character at all. Definitely not up there on my list.

Harvest Moon Octoberfest (New Brunswick, NJ) on tap and growler - I actually had a taste of this a couple weeks ago, but was not impressed enough to order a pint. The couple weeks of maturing have helped this beer a great deal. Head didn't hold up, but a nice body made this very drinkable. Nicely balanced with caramelly-maltiness (almost no roasted tones) with a solid hoppiness (but not agressive) on the tongue. This is one of my locals and I was glad to see that it improved with age. So much so that I filled the growler with it. After 40 hrs. in the jug, the head was almost non-existant, but a vigorous pour stirred one up. I gotta invest in one of those swing-top growlers!

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Herb Ninja
I got 6 bottles of koestritzer oktoberfest. I didn't expect very much to be honest, shipped all the way to Maui from Germany and still a reasonable price $ 7.50 6-pack. Heres my amatuer review: Not too hoppy, decent aftertaste, smooth yet a little bland, slight/medium head retention, not the best smell in the bottle but seemingly better after it warms a bit in a glass. A very slight caramel flavor. Doesn't have very much alcohol flavor, my guess is that its 5%abv or less. Can't find any websites to confirm alcohol percentage. The label is kinda attractive, not the best but it beats most mass-produced beers. I would recomend trying it if you could find it at a better price then what I paid.



I seem to recall that Germany is kinda like England with regard to alcohol. Someone once told me that the reason the beer served at Oktoberfest was slightly higher in alcohol content was because they charge more for the beer and therefore you were entitled to something more in that beer. On one of my german trips I was in Munich one day after Oktoberfest was over. They were taking down all the tents and rides. Shame I missed it. Also, I believe the Oktoberfest beers are returning to the lighter colored lagers rather than what Americans think to be traditional red or amber colored lagers. Maybe Steveh can shed some light on this.

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Also, I believe the Oktoberfest beers are returning to the lighter colored lagers rather than what Americans think to be traditional red or amber colored lagers. Maybe Steveh can shed some light on this.

See my post about Lowenbrau on page 2 of this thread.

Not sure about the taxes on higher alcohol in Germany, but Marzens were traditionally brewed a little stronger to help them last through the Summers before pasteurization and electric refrigeration.

S.

[jlttb]

Originally posted by Herb Ninja
I got 6 bottles of koestritzer oktoberfest. I didn't expect very much to be honest, shipped all the way to Maui from Germany and still a reasonable price $ 7.50 6-pack.
The manager at my beer distributor recommended the Kostritzer as a worthy alternative to Spaten. (I'd never heard of it.) And it did have more of that Spaten taste than any of the other Fests I've tried (partidularly more than the American Fests). It is a little lighter, but does have decent head retention, yet still keeps that Spaten tang I can't quite describe yet.
It's $4.99 at my distributor - most good sixes start at 5.99 so I was pretty happy with the recommendation.

[steveh]

Originally posted by jlttb
yet still keeps that Spaten tang I can't quite describe yet.

I had pulled Al Karzonas' book, "Homebrewing Vol. 1" off my shelf to look some info up last night, and I think he can help (sort of) in identifying that Spaten Okto flavor:

"Another part of what we call "malt aroma" is from melanoidins. It is difficult to describe the smell of these compounds, so the esiest way for me to convey to you how to identify them is to suggest that you smell a few beers that are high in them. I feel high-melanoidin beers can have a slight "grape-like" aroma which can be misjudged as esters, so you should be careful. Oktoberfest beers are high in melanoidins and, personally, I believe that they are one of the defining factors in a good example of the style. Spaten, Ayinger*, Paulaner, Hofbrauhaus, and Hacker-Pschorr are some of the best. Paulaner Salvator Doppelbock is also very high in melanoidins."

He goes on to later say,

"Another group of compounds responsible for what we call malt aroma are called melanoidins. Crystal malts have some melanoidins, but the true source of melanoidins in beers are high-kilned malts such as Vienna, Munich, DeWolf-Coysins' Aromatic, and (of course) Weyerman's Melanoidin malts."

Since we all know that the malts impart flavor as well as aroma, and that aromas will certainly effect flavor, I'm guessing this is that distinct maltiness found in Oktoberfest Biers. Even though Kostritzer is in the lighter style of the newer "Fest" beers, I'd bet there is a good amount of Crystal malt used in the recipe - giving us the great malt nose and flavor.

S.

*Oh yeah, I bet Al hasn't had the Ayinger *this* year.

[denver brewhoo]

I think it's actually the Munich instead of any Crystal, but that's because I made my first lager, a Dortmunder, in July from a recipe which called for (obviously, among other things) 2 pounds of Munich....that Dortmunder, which I tapped right around the middle of September, ie just as I was getting into these Oktoberfests, had that flavor characteristic you guys are talking about, and that I taste as well in the Spaten and Ayinger and Hacker pschorr...

I had been pretty exclusively a pale ale/bitter/IPA/ESB guy for quite a few years until I started homebrewing and wanted to try the challenge of a step-infusion mash, so I defer to your greater tasting experience...but I think it's the Munich

[steveh]

Yes, Munich will impart the melanoidin aromas/flavors, but I suggested the Crystal malt in beers such as the Kostritzer Oktoberfest because it is of the newer style of the Bavarian "fest" beers - very golden in color with none of the amber color of traditional Marzens (such as the Spaten exported to the U.S.).

I'm surprised that the Munich didn't make your Dortmunder too amber in color.

S.

[denver brewhoo]

It probably did...I'm not up on the style guidelines, here's a limk to the recipe:
http://www.beertools.com/html/recipe.php?view=1061

I used a German Munich, not the American Munich in the recipe, and they were out of German pils so I used a Belgian pils if memory serves.

The recipe author's notes indicate that the <b>anticipated</b> color is just out of the appropriate range....I don't know the SRM number of mine but it looked a lot like that Spaten Oktoberfest, so probably a lot too dark.

Sure tasted good though.

[steveh]

Based on the grain bill (specifically your alterations), I bet it was.

Aside from the Munich malt (is American Munich lighter than the imported variety?), that could be a Munich Helles recipe. Then again, Dortmunder and Helles are both spin-offs of Pilsner, so I imagine they have similar recipes - probably just the water and yeast that makes them taste different.

According to the AHA, Dortmunder should have a Color SRM of 3-5 (described as straw to deep golden), and Marzens 4-15 (man, that's really wide - golden to reddish brown) - so there's a little cross-over. However, the description of Dort, says, "Sweet malt flavor can be low and should not be caramel like." While Marzens can have a "...low level of light caramel." Hmm, Dort is hoppier than Okto and Helles too - never realized that.

An easier comparison is, of course, Beck's to Spaten Okto. Becks is the typical Dortmunder (provided they're really not using adjuncts for their export batches any more).

S.

That's a cool site, thanks - I need to book-mark it.

[jlttb]

Originally posted by steveh
Oktoberfest beers are high in melanoidins and, personally, I believe that they are one of the defining factors in a good example of the style. Spaten, Ayinger*, Paulaner, Hofbrauhaus, and Hacker-Pschorr are some of the best. Paulaner Salvator Doppelbock is also very high in melanoidins."

Melanoidins--that's the taste! (I'll have to try the Salvator to be sure.) Thanks for the info.

The Octoberfest reviews in the Beer.edu (http://www.realbeer.com/edu/oktoberfest.php) section -- those refer to 2002 beers, it looks like -- anyone know that for sure?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by steveh
I had pulled Al Karzonas' book, "Homebrewing Vol. 1" off my shelf to look some info up last night, and I think he can help (sort of) in identifying that Spaten Okto flavor:

"Another part of what we call "malt aroma" is from melanoidins. It is difficult to describe the smell of these compounds, so the esiest way for me to convey to you how to identify them is to suggest that you smell a few beers that are high in them. I feel high-melanoidin beers can have a slight "grape-like" aroma which can be misjudged as esters, so you should be careful. Oktoberfest beers are high in melanoidins and, personally, I believe that they are one of the defining factors in a good example of the style. Spaten, Ayinger*, Paulaner, Hofbrauhaus, and Hacker-Pschorr are some of the best. Paulaner Salvator Doppelbock is also very high in melanoidins."

He goes on to later say,

"Another group of compounds responsible for what we call malt aroma are called melanoidins. Crystal malts have some melanoidins, but the true source of melanoidins in beers are high-kilned malts such as Vienna, Munich, DeWolf-Coysins' Aromatic, and (of course) Weyerman's Melanoidin malts."

Since we all know that the malts impart flavor as well as aroma, and that aromas will certainly effect flavor, I'm guessing this is that distinct maltiness found in Oktoberfest Biers. Even though Kostritzer is in the lighter style of the newer "Fest" beers, I'd bet there is a good amount of Crystal malt used in the recipe - giving us the great malt nose and flavor.

S.

*Oh yeah, I bet Al hasn't had the Ayinger *this* year.

Most melanoidin production is a direct result of the double and triple decoction mashing(that is the Maillard Reactions that occur in decoction mashing) that is used in the creation of okto, bock, doppel bock, etc. In brewing melanoidins are primarily Maillard Reaction Products. It's one of the reasons that it's so hard to create a very "malty" nosed bavarian using only a single infusion mash.

Try AHA Classic Beer Styles "Bock" for a more in depth discussion of this.