Harvesting yeast

[Brownbeard]

OK, I am gonne do this. I am going from primary to secondary tonight on my batch of beer. I am thinking about harvesting the yeast. When I drain my primary, there is always an inch of brew on top of the yeast cake. If I want to collect this to use in a month or so, what is the best method. Should I avoid putting any fermenting beer in with the yeast? I was under the impression that at this point, I want to get the yeast, but not do a starter until I am going to brew with it. I have never done this before. I know I can get good advice here. I guess the biggest question is "What do I want to collect, and what do I want to dispose of?" The second question, how do I want to store it? I am planning on using a quart jar.

[sallad]

here is a link to wyeast's article (http://www.wyeastlab.com/hbrew/hbyewash.htm) about yeast washing. personally, i don't bother to wash it, i just dump about 2 cups of yeast slop ("slop" being the technical term..) into a sanatized jar and refrigerate it. i filter my beer as i dump it into primary, so i don't have many hops particles in the first place. the yeast may still be a little active when you dump it in, so i always let off pressure every so often over the first few hours in the fridge to make sure nothing explodes! right now i have a wheat beer bubbling away with the 5th generation of reused yeast from a wyeast american ale. no problems yet! although, so far i've only tasted the beer made from the first 3 generations...

also, there have been other threads on here dealing with this; try searching for them!

[vendejp]

how do you know you have enought yeast cells in that jar for your next batch?

[Payson]

The basic nature of yeast is that it will propagate given the right food, temperature and environment so, that given, in a technical sense 1 active cell would do the trick. Needless to say, if you gather a "glop" (previously used technical term I believe) then you will have plenty. The same holds true for pitching liquid yeast or making a starter for liquid yeast. What it boils down to is the rapidity that the yeast will "take over" and start active fermentation.

[michaewa]

vendejp - I think a good way to tell as Payson said is to make a starter a few days before you brew. If you see signs of activity in your starter then you know the yeast is alive and kicking.

As an experiment I cultured yeast out of a bottle from my first batch last night, I got up this morning and the airlock was bubbling along nicely. I'm wondering if these yeast are the best and brightest since they have survived all the stages of beer production. I guess I'll see in my next batch.

[Brownbeard]

OK, I guess what I was really getting at, should I only take the thick yeast cake off the bottom, or should I allow some of the fermented beer in there to thin it out? There will be some fermented beer on top the yeast after draining the primary, there always is for me. Do I want to avoid getting that in my recovered yeast?

[S.F.B.]

Her is the method I have used with great success.

Sanitize a pint jar (you really don't need any more than that) and lid. I also sanitize a ladel to scoop up the yeast. After syphoning your beer, dump the sanitizer and scoop up to about 2/3 of the jar's capacity. Don't worry if you get some of the beer in with it. It doesn't matter. Seal the jar and refridgerate. When ready, I take it out and use like it was a new package of liquid yeast.

There are many differing opinions on how long it wil keep. I don't use what I've harvested if it is more than 2 weeks in the fridge. Also, I have been under the impression that you should only use for 3 or 4 generations :confused: . Maybe someone else has some info on this.

[Brownbeard]

Thanks S.F.B., that is what I was looking for.

[brewmonkey]

I strongly suggest that if you harvest yeast you repitch in no more then 7 days. Unless you have it stored under the exact conditions it will degrade in storage and cause problems.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I strongly suggest that if you harvest yeast you repitch in no more then 7 days. Unless you have it stored under the exact conditions it will degrade in storage and cause problems.

Hey brewmonkey(et al) I've never quite understood this. Why is it that yeast from Wyeast( or White Labs,etc) can be stored in a tube in the fridge for months but it's not okay to do the same thing with harvested yeast? Does Wyeast put something "magic" in each tube that homebrewers don't have access to?

[Jughead]

I'm confused (nothing new)

Is it best to harvest the yeast from the primary (along with all the other gunk) or from the secondary when you bottle?

[Tweek]

I am of the opinion that it is best to make a starter with your yeast and then harvest from your starter. Your yeast will stay viable a bit longer that way I believe. Could be wrong on that, just makes the most sense to me.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
Hey brewmonkey(et al) I've never quite understood this. Why is it that yeast from Wyeast( or White Labs,etc) can be stored in a tube in the fridge for months but it's not okay to do the same thing with harvested yeast? Does Wyeast put something "magic" in each tube that homebrewers don't have access to?

Because the yeast is put into the tube/bottle under lab conditions. Doing it in the brewhouse or at home there is no way to replicate the lab conditions needed.

[shaken]

For the most part, beer yeasts are forgiving and can survive for quite a long time under the right conditions. One yeast cell can make a batch of beer, but you have to grow it to a point where the yeast will ferment the beer and not be over run by any other "wild strains". I agree with Brewmonkey, that Wyeast and White Lab have "sterile" conditions that they use to propogate their yeasts. Brewhouses and home brewers, at best, have "sanitary" conditions. I'm sure you're aware of the difference. The best success I have had with the yeast harvesting, is to use it within 7 days. (with my time scheduling, I've just resorted to buying fresh each time. Even Wyeast has as expiration date on it)

I've had beer yeasts in my refrigerator for up to 3 months, but, always had to regrow it just to be sure there would be enough cells to allow it to make the beer. On the flip side of the coin, I've also thrown away a lot of yeast because of poor inactivity and sometimes poor handling.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Because the yeast is put into the tube/bottle under lab conditions. Doing it in the brewhouse or at home there is no way to replicate the lab conditions needed.

So are we talking about for just pitching the harvested yeast or using the harvested yeast to make a starter and then pitching that? I am currently testing the latter since I pitched(on Saturday) a starter made with 2 month old Wyeast 1318(that was harvested from secondary) that has been very vigorous. The real test will be the taste though. The 1318 was stored in a 42 F frig.

[brewmonkey]

If you are harvesting yeast you should always harvest enough to pitch the next batch or beer you are making. If this is not possible it should be ok to prop it up.

When you are ready to use (again this should be within 7 days) I would remove it from the fridge about 1-2 hours prior to the pitch and allow it to come up to room temp so as not to shock it.

If you have the ability, your storage area should be as close to freezing as possible and free of anything that might harm your beer. DO NOT STORE NEAR MILK BASED PRODUCTS!!! I use my conditioning fridge for this as it is kept at 34F while my beer is dropping bright and it is the only thing in there.

[BucksBrew]

What if you are making a different style beer everytime?

I'm a new brewer and I haven't made the same beer twice. I've made probably a dozen different kinds.

Will one strain of yeast make all your beer taste the same with different styles being made?

[Richard English]

Don't expect the one yeast to do the right job for all styles of beer. All yeasts will promote fermentation (even bakers' yeast) but it is better by far to use the right yeast for the job (and there are probably thousands)

Commercial brewers are very jealous about their yeasts strains and would never consider changing them.

[S.F.B.]

Originally posted by BucksBrew
What if you are making a different style beer everytime?

It takes a little bit of planning but there is a very easy solution. You can brew a variety of styles using the same type of yeast. For example, I use WYeast British Ale for about 3 different brews. Brown Ale, IPA and Amber Ale. Just plan on doing a few batches that can be done with the same yeast strain.

[brewmonkey]

You can use the same strain with great success provided it has the qualities you are looking for in each beer. WLP005 and 002 are two that come to mind when doing English Ale's. By varying the temp even a little bit you can change the character to suit the style.

I have even had great success with them in some of the Scottish Ales that I have done. Especially the 002 due to it's ability to tolerate some higher alcohol levels in my Scotch Ales and Barleywines.

As Richard pointed out, breweries spend alot of money culturing a yeast and maintaining it so to match it with an off the shelf product could prove a daunting task. Rouge is known for the "Pac-Man" strain they use, and it is damned hard IMHO to replicate the beers they do without it.

Whitelabs has a chart that lists their yeasts and the style(s) they are suited for. The WLP002 is the only one that is listed as a great match or good match for all the ale categories followed by the California Ale (001?) matching most styles.

I can also suggest that mixing your yeast strains is a good way to achieve a "house" strain for your beers. I have done this and it works great, it does add a few bucks to the batch though.

Experimenting with yeast is a fun thing to do, it can take your brewing to the next level.

[cyanide]

Originally posted by BucksBrew
What if you are making a different style beer everytime?

I'm a new brewer and I haven't made the same beer twice. I've made probably a dozen different kinds.

Will one strain of yeast make all your beer taste the same with different styles being made?

I believe so, given the fact that most microbrewies that produce a wide range of styles only do so with one lager and one ale yeast, and maybe one or two others for real special cases (lambic).

Althought I'm guessing they know how to set up the proper conditions to get them to produce the flavors they want. Whereas most homebrewers have to rely on the right yeast, not the right equipment and science.

[brewmonkey]

NO, you can pitch the harvest without propping it up if you harvested enough. Standard pitching rate is about 1 lb pre bbl so 1/6 of a LB for 5 USG would be enough.

I would have some concerns about using two month old yeast let me know how it goes.

Yeast can survive and prosper under the right conditions, but as I have said before most of the homebrewers here do not have the ability to create those conditions. Yeast can also be frozen for periods of up to a year if it is done correctly, but a freezer in the kitchen is not the right tool for that.

I HIGHLY suggest if you harvest yeast, you use it within 7 days (+ or -) a day. I would have great reservation about using something older then that in my precious beer. Trying to save some money from each batch is a good idea but when it is $5-7 we are talking about versus an entire batch and the time put into it, I would rather spend the money and be sure that my yeast is optimum for the task at hand.

Dr. White from WhiteLabs has a book out on yeast managment.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
...I would have great reservation about using something older then that in my precious beer. .....


I agree and normally I'm more conservative. But it's sometimes a good idea to test ideas that have come to be accepted as the rule.

Yesterday I tasted the stout(that I pitched the starter made with the two month old yeast) after one week and it's going to be great. Maybe I lucked out - I'll probably test this again. If I get a bad result, I'll probably abandon using yeast that old. If not - well.....

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by cyanide
I believe so, given the fact that most microbrewies that produce a wide range of styles only do so with one lager and one ale yeast, and maybe one or two others for real special cases (lambic).

Althought I'm guessing they know how to set up the proper conditions to get them to produce the flavors they want. Whereas most homebrewers have to rely on the right yeast, not the right equipment and science.

In our brewery I use one primary Ale strain for all beers on tap (12 beers on tap). The five flagships (Stout, Kolsch, Amber & 2 wheats) are all made with the same strain. I use it for some of the seasonals, but will either buy or prop up another strain for some of them like the lagers or Belgians.

When I do Belgians I use the same strain for all as it is a strain I have grown to love (WLP 530) and for Lagers I will choose one that best fits the need but I am partial to the Old Bavarian Lager (again from White Labs).

Brewing all your beer with the same strain will lead to bland beer that all has the same "taste" but in a setting of a brewery brewing with more then one strain at a time can lead to disaster. Migration is not common but not unheard of. I had a Belgian yeast migrate into my Irish ale several years ago, caused some big problems and ended up having to move both beers out and rebrew my Irish Ale 4 weeks behind schedule.


Edited to add:

I am not nor have I ever been in the employ of White Labs. I like their business philosophy and the way they take care if their customers. I also like the products they produce, and their Yeast is hands down the best available to brewers right now.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
In our brewery I use one primary Ale strain for all beers on tap (12 beers on tap). The five flagships (Stout, Kolsch, Amber & 2 wheats) are all made with the same strain. I use it for some of the seasonals, but will either buy or prop up another strain for some of them like the lagers or Belgians.
.

That's very interesting. Are the 2 wheats more of an american style wheat or bavarian? Are you able to get the strong banana/clove taste? I know the banana/clove is more intense if a higher ferm temp is used but I've been under the impression that those particular taste are very strain specific.

Which White Labs yeast is it that you use to create your flagship beers?

[brewmonkey]

They are American wheat beers, one is made with honey the other with Raspberries.

I do not make any Hefe using a German strain as they do not sell well in the pub. I do make a Hefe using the American Hefe strain which sells very well.

My house strain is a WLP 002.

[SLOSHomebrewers]

Not wanting to risk the yeast cultures going bad, and also wanting to maintian mulitple cultures for a long period of time, I utilize testtube agar slants.

When I want to brew a stout, I innoculate my starter from the slant and in 30 hours have a pitchable ammount.

Easy enough and it allows me to kick my brewing up to the next level.
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[brewmonkey]

You're going from a slant to pitchable in 30 hours? What's your complete method?

[YamahaXS]

For info on the topic of slants see http://brewery.org/brewery/library/YstCult.html

and a google with:

gelatin slant


works pretty well.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by YamahaXS
For info on the topic of slants see http://brewery.org/brewery/library/YstCult.html

and a google with:

gelatin slant


works pretty well.

I understand the agar slants and have used them as well. But to go from a slant to pitch rate (even for 5 gals) in 30 hours seems rather quick. I am curious as to the method as it might be different (better) then my current method. I would be more inclined to plate out and prep slants if I could do it in 30 hours as opposed to the several days it currently takes me.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
I understand the agar slants and have used them as well. But to go from a slant to pitch rate (even for 5 gals) in 30 hours seems rather quick. I am curious as to the method as it might be different (better) then my current method. I would be more inclined to plate out and prep slants if I could do it in 30 hours as opposed to the several days it currently takes me.

I figured you did, but I hadn't heard fo this and figured many others would not of either. Hence the search and post. :)

[SLOSHomebrewers]

The secret is the magnetic stir plate. I have been performing this procedure for the last 4 batches (5 gallons each). I am still perfecting the procedure, but I have been so far sucessful.

I add 2 ounces of pale dry malt extract (DME) to 350 to 400 mL of water in a 500 mL flask. I also add a pinch of Diammomium Phosphate (DAP). I boil the mixture with the stir bar moving slowly for 10 minutes, dissolving and sterlizing the wort.

I cover the flask with foil, and place it in the freezer to cool, after 30-40 minutes, I place the flask on the stir plate and set it to max stir to aerate the wort for 5 minutes. While it is at max stir, I innoculate a loop of yeast from the slant and place an air lock on the flask.

I turn the stir plate down to 5 for the remainder of the 30 hours and forget about it.

On brew day, I turn the stirrer off, and let the yeast sediment settle out. This takes about three hours, but there is plenty of time when you are all grain brewing! Immediately before pitching time, I pour off the remaining spent media from the flask and place it back on the stirrer to evenly mix up the yeast slurry in approximately 100 mL of solution. This I pitch into 5 gallons (being careful to not pitch the stir bar also). I consistently get CO2 production 10 hours after pitching.

Because I am still experimenting, I do not know what the gravity of the wort is I am using. Ideally, I would want it to be close to the gravity of the wort I will be pitching into.

I have experimented with less DME, and got less growth (I wasn't surprised). I will be experimenting with more DME in the future.

I also experimented with only 24 hours of stirring, hoping to keep the yeast in the multiplication phase. I only got less growth, and a slower starting fermentation.

I also expermented with a larger volume of solution, but the stir plate was not able to stir the whole 500 mL of solution well enough. Then I remembered why it is always best to use flasks only about half-full. If you want 600 mL of solution, get a 1000 mL flask.
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