Beer Saloon and Brewery in New York City circa 1860s and 1870s

[colin]

Hello Everyone,

I have two questions to ask here which I am wondering if anyone can point me in the right direction for seeking answers to.

I am trying to confirm the name of a beer brewery that I see listed on a particular 1870 Census record in New York City. In the street address portion of the census record it lists a name of a brewery which looks to be named Turell Bay Brewery on East 45th Street between First and Second avenues. I was thinking that perhaps the census taker made a mistake on the brewery name. Perhaps they meant to write down Turtle Bay Brewery considering the East 45th Street location between First and Second avenues?

Is there some kind of resource that would list the names of beer breweries that existed in New York City in 1870? I would like to confirm the name of this brewery and see if there is any further information about this particular brewery.

My last question is in regard to beer saloons that existed in New York City during an 1860 to 1890 time period. Did beer saloon establishments require liquor licenses in order to be operated? If so, where can one research such liquor license records?

I ask this question because one of my German ancestors owned a beer saloon in lower Manhattan during this time period and I would like to see if I can confirm the street address location of where his beer saloon was located.

Many thanks to any answers anyone can provide to these questions!

[chazwicke]

I'll look at my copy of American Breweries II to see if I can find any info for you. I also recommend contacting any of the breweriana collecting clubs. I guarantee one of their members has the answer to your questions or has written about NYC breweries. I belong to all three.

http://www.bcca.com/

http://www.americanbreweriana.org/

http://www.nababrew.org/

Also Beerbooks.com may have something published on NY breweries.

[colin]

Hello Chazwicke,

Thanks for your reply, I'll be taking a look at those Web Sites you made mention of.

I also wanted to point out something else about that brewery that existed at East 45th Street, between 1st and 2nd Avenue in that 1865 - 1870 time period.

Keep your eyes open for a certain Charles Wannemacher or Chas. Wannemacher that might be mentioned in any information that you may find for such a brewery that existed at this street address during that time period.

Thanks!
Colin

[chazwicke]

Colin, I've got some info for you about what was once called Turtle Bay Brewery. I'll post it tomorrow. I'm off to bed right now.

[HarkJohnny]

so you're gonna leave us hanging like this?!

[chazwicke]

OK. OK.

Looks like the brewery started sometime before 1850 and was known as

Aktien Brauerei.
It was located at 322 East 45th between 1st and 2nd Aves.

It is listed
1850 - 1869 as Turtle Bay Brewery , Franz Ruppert (322 East 45 & 785 1st Ave.)

1869-1874 Turtle Bay Brewery, Jacob Robinson

(apparently absorbed into George Gillig compound and operated as
Turtle Bay Brewery until some time in the 1890s)

Some notes on Gillig:

1853- 1862 George Gillig ( 320 / 346 East 46th St.)
1862- 1865 George Gillig's Estate
1865- 1873 John G. Gillig & Frederick Oppermann
1873- 1875 Gillig, Oppermann & Co
1875- 1884 Oppermann & Mueller, Turtle Bay Lager Beer Brewery (44th & 45th between 1st and 2nd Aves)
1884- 1886 Frederick Oppermann, Jr.
1892- 1911 Thomas Conville Brewing Co.

It appears that Gillig operated breweries at other locations from 1840 - 1853

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by colin
Hello Chazwicke,

Thanks for your reply, I'll be taking a look at those Web Sites you made mention of.

I also wanted to point out something else about that brewery that existed at East 45th Street, between 1st and 2nd Avenue in that 1865 - 1870 time period.

Keep your eyes open for a certain Charles Wannemacher or Chas. Wannemacher that might be mentioned in any information that you may find for such a brewery that existed at this street address during that time period.

Thanks!
Colin

I did find a listing for a Charles Wannemacher (45th St. Between 1st and 2nd Ave) ?-1865-? Thats all it says.

[chazwicke]

I found the following under Oppermann:

1878- 1896 Frederick Oppermann, Junior., Turtle Bay Brewery (330/336 East 45th st.)
1896- 1897 Estate of Frederick Oppermann, Jr.
1897- 1910 Frederick Oppermann, Jr. Brewing Co.

[colin]

Hello Chazwicke,

Thanks very much for sharing the information about the Turtle Bay Brewery. You probably saw the listing for Charles Wannemacher, brewer, in the 1865 New York City Directory under the brewers section correct?

I believe he was a relative to my ggg-grandfather who ran a beer saloon in Lower Manhattan in that 1860 to 1890 time period and now I even wonder if it was Charles who supplied the beer for my ggg-grandfather's saloon.

Now I just have to see if I can verify the street address location of my ggg-grandfather's beer saloon though I have a feeling it was located in the same building they lived. If there were such a thing as liquor licenses during that time period, I wonder if it would provide the street location of the saloon.