Pale Ale Brewing and Other "Newbie" Questions

[Halgarmeister]

Hey guys, it's getting time to do another batch. I recently purchased one of those propane turkey deep fryer's that I intend to use for my brewing. This thing seems to get seriously hot, my concern is scorching. The pot is a thin, single walled thing and I'm considering options to reduce the probablility of scorching. Idea one is to put a 1/4" steel plate under the kettle, the other is to get a larger kettle, put my kettle into it and fill the "jacket" with water. What are your thoughts on those ideas? the use of this deep fryer also allows me to do full boils for the first time. I've never really gotten to the ABV target I'm looking for, nor the finished volume, so some pointers here would be appreciated.

I'm also looking towards the cooler weather of fall and winter to try some barley wine. I don't have the ability to ferment below ambient air temps, so the cooler seasons are a must for this attempt. What I'm looking for is a recipe for a good barley wine, one that has great flavors without bitterness or bite. What do all you pro's have up your sleeves?

Recap:

1 - Preventing scorching of brew - 1/4" plate under pot OR submerse exising pot into larger pot of water?

2 - Finished volume - I would like to pitch a 5 gallon batch to ferment. What volume of water should I be using to attain this?

3 - Good Barley wine recipes that are not bitter or have prolonged bite/aftertaste? I LOVE the flavor of beer, I don't care for hop bite, bitterness, and prolonged aftertaste.

Thanks for your insights, I sincerely apprecitate them.

[BignJames]

I brew on a gas burner w/a 5.5 ss stockpot and I've not had any scorching yet. If you're using extract, kill the flame, add the extract and stir until dissolved, then return to boil. I've recently started adding the bulk of my extract at flameout to reduce the extract "whang".

If you're not a big hops fan try something maltier like a porter or a stout or even a maibock.

[TrojanAnteater]

Originally posted by BignJames
I've recently started adding the bulk of my extract at flameout to reduce the extract "whang".

Can you elaborate on that please?

[BignJames]

See this

https://www.homebrewingsupplies.org/catalog/answers.php

[BignJames]

And this

http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4963&perpage=15&highlight=extract+twang&pagenumber=2

[Grog]

Start with 6 gallons pre-boil and see what you end up with at the end of the boil. Chances are you will need top up water, but adding extra water is a heck of a lot easier then adding extract. It takes 3-4 boils to hit the beginning volume dead on.

[danno]

back to issue #1. first, you'll never get a boil if you put a pot inside a pot. won't happen, so chuck that idea out the window. you won't get scorching as long as you turn off the heat when you add your extract, and stir well, making sure all your stuff is mixed in. once you get a boil, you can turn the heat down to a rolling boil, and you won't get scorching...

[Vienna Lager]

Danno said it all.

[Halgarmeister]

You're right, the one time I had a scorch was when the LME didn't thoroughly disolve before the heat was turned back up.

I'll try the new fryer as is and see how it goes. While I've never had off flavors (that I know of ) from full boil extract, the two step does sound intriguing.

[Halgarmeister]

The last batch of brew didn't work out. The yeast petered out. I infused it with a shot of yeast from the local pub, still nothing, and the brew was a milky/murky color. I tossed the whole works.

I just brewed a new batch yesterday, and under the guideance of you great folks, I did a starter:

2c water - boiled
1/2-3/4c LME
Cooled to 80 degrees and pitched yeast that had been at room temp for at least 2 hours.

Results? NADa, NOTHING, ZILCH! No reaction from the yeast what-so-ever. The liquid yeast was purchased 2 weeks ago and the expiration date was mid October. I went back the the brew supply to get a new ampule of yeast, explaining the problem to the guy, who in mid conversation took a phone call and that was it... He happily charged me for the new yeast while he gabbed with the customer on the phone about their beer problems.

The little info that I did get from him was that the ampule of yeast is enough for over 10 gallons of beer, that a starter wasn't necessary. Necessary or not, the problem of the original yeast not having any action/reaction in the starter was never addressed.

Back home, now 3+ hours of purchasing the new yeast (yeast has been in girlfriends purse during this time, it's at room temp, never exposed to extreme heat during these 3+ hours ). I pitch the yeast into the batch, put it into the carboy, shake it several times over the next few hours (even after a good aeration with a wisk ) and put it to bed. this morning I check and while there is some bubble activity in the airstop, there isn't what there usually is, and if you look at the wort in the carboy, there is no activity, and it's usually "boiling" in there by this time.

I've never liked the people at the LHBS, yesterday's experience confirms that and I will not return. I have one other possible LHBS to check out, otherwise it's either purchase online or change to full grain brewing and get my supplies from the pub.

On a positive note, the use of the turkey fryer decreased my total brewing time from 4 hours to 3 hours (not including going out for more yeast ). Doing full boils is far easier than using smaller pots and pans to accomplish this task. To prevent scorching of the LME, I liquified it into 2 quarts of hot water while the main pot was coming to a boil. This prevented the LME from sinking and sticking to the bottom of the boiling pot, a depth beyond that which any of my stirring utensils could reach. The brewing process went smoothly, the only exception being the yeast.

I appologize for the rant. It's just frustrating to go to all this work and effort and then have to toss the batch.

[toneyc]

Halgarmeister, it is hard to tell from your narrative, but did you make the yeast starter 2-3 days ahead of time? And did you watch it to make sure that the yeast was active? If the yeast starter wasn't active, you should not have brewed until you had good yeast. There are two reasons for the yeast starter, one is to make sure the yeast is alive so that you don't have to throw a batch out, and the other is to reduce lag times and give the yeast a head start on your wort. If you did see active yeast in the starter, then you should have seen activity in you fermenter within 4 hours. The only thing that would have prevented that would be pitching way too hot or way too cold.

On the previous batch, did you take hydrometer readings to see if fermentation was done? I have had beer that stayed milky/cloudy for weeks and then just dropped clear overnight.

:)
Toney.

[Halgarmeister]

No, I made the starter just prior to starting the brew process. As I recall from my previous PA thread, the starter could be done this way. At any rate, there should have been some sign of activity within 4 hours of making it, which there was none. With the new yeast, yesterday morning there was decent bubbling in the airstop. Today I think it's a little more, it's hard to tell. One difference that I think I'm going to like in this new batch is, because the yeast didn't work and I had to go out and get new, it allowed the wort to sit on the counter and settle out. I then was able to only siphon off the wort and leave all the hop residue behind. The only drawback to this is that I can't actually see activity in the brew, there's no particulate in there to see moving. LOL I can live with that, though. I tasted the wort as it went to the carboy and it's probably the best tasting batch yet. Very smooth, no bitterness, just the usual high sugar content and a bit more grain flavor that other batches. My gravity was 1.042

On the batch I just tossed, I did the same thing, only with dry Doric yeast, and almost immediately got plenty of activity, so much so that it was overflowing the 4 cup measure it was in. After pitching to the wort it had minor activity for about 24 hours (I don't recall how much lag time ), then died. 3 days later I added a little more yeast, got a few more bubbles for a day or so, and then nothing. No, I didn't check the gravity of it because I didn't feel that there was any way that it could have completely fermented out in the little time I saw activity in the airlock. I also didn't like the milky cloudiness, something I've never seen before, and this is the same recipe I've been working on for a long time. I'm used to the wort being cloudy but not a whitish cloudy. When I dumped the batch there was a layer of white something or other on the bottom of the carboy, again, not something I've seen before.

So, you're saying that I should do the starter at least 2-3 days ahead of the brew date? Do you think it necessary to do this if I buy directly from the pub, using their liquid yeast?

[wortchillergoal]

The barleywine question. You do know that a barleywine brewed now most likely won't be ready for drinking until a year from when you brew it. They need to age to be at their best.

To get it sweeter, use lots of malt and watch the IBUs of the hops you choose. Though a really low hopping schedule wouldn't be true to barleywine style, make what you will enjoy. My wife prefers sweet barleywines. Also, the aging process will help bring more of the malt sweetness to the front of the taste. You could also add nonfermentable sugars. Once again this would not be to style, but who cares.

Hope I was of help.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by wortchillergoal
Hope I was of help.

Some.

I don't even "know" what the different styles are, or rather, what makes one style different from another. And, as you said, "make what you like", that is what I aim for in my brewing. While my tastes have matured a bit, I'm still not a fan of bitterness and afterbite. I have learned to calculate IBU's which has been great, and with that knowledge, I will have an idea of the bitterness the recipe will produce. The next thing to figure out is the flavor profiles of the different hops and grains to in some small way understand what to expect in the final product.

I know that barley wines do have to age, it was my impression with "big" beers like this that they need to ferment at very cool/cold temps, something that I can't do unless the ambient temp is such. In the winter, I can store the fermenter in the garage where the temp will be considerably lower. Here in California we've got probably 4 good months of mild to colder temps, I figured that's plenty of time in the fermenter during this season. After that, it would be racked and stored elsewhere to keep it cool until maturation. I don't know that I have a year to invest in it at this point.

I tried some BW at the pub last year and I felt it had promise. It was a little too syrupy, reminiscent of cough syrup, only a MUCH better taste! LOL :D

[wortchillergoal]

A barleywine uses ale yeast. They do not need as cool a temp as lager yeast. I have done a few barleywines sitting at room temp and they have been fine. A couple were started in winter and a couple in spring to give you an idea as to temps. One was started on Labor Day w/e 7 yrs ago when I found out my wife was with child.

Any more questions just fire away as this is a great group of people ready to assist.

[Halgarmeister]

I've been thankful for all the help this forum has offered me. Thank you for your help too, Wortchillergoal. What was your BW recipe? and can you give me a rough idea of it's profile... IBU's, etc?

[danno]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
Some.

I don't even "know" what the different styles are, or rather, what makes one style different from another. you should go and look here then...

http://www.bjcp.org/styles04/

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks Danno, I'll have a look.

[wortchillergoal]

In the Tasting Notes forum there is a thread posted titled Wortchillegoal Barleywine Supreme. That has a reciepe for one of my BWs. The board member that tasted it enjoyed as you can see by his opening post for that thread.

[Halgarmeister]

It's either in a different forum or it's been pruned, because there is no thread by that name. The two that were started by you were:

Hops Infusion and Should I take one for the Realbeer team

Somehow those don't seem like they'd have a BW recipe in them... :D LOL

[wortchillergoal]

try this link

www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6877

[Halgarmeister]

Now THAT looks better... LOL :D

Unfortunately, most of that looks to be written in Greek.

"1/2 ld of 60 degree crystal and removed at 165"

<wink wink>

I know that means something, but you're talking to a newbie LME brewer. I've only been brewing seriously for about a year. In that time about 6 batches with varying degrees of success. In light of recent issues with the LHBS I'm looking for alternatives to the LHBS, one of which is to buy from the pub which would necessitate grain brewing, not extracts. From precursory looks, that seems like a whole bunch more trouble than I'm prepared for. 3 to 4 hours is enough brew time for me, to take an entire day to go through a full grain style brew would be murder. I'd never find the time or the gumption to do it! LOL

[wortchillergoal]

That reciepie is less than 3 hours to do.

I put a 1/2 lb of crystal malt into a grain bag. I put the bag into the boil pot of water. I started the gas to heat the water. I monitored the temp and took the bag out at 165 degrees. When the water boiled I added the DME, you can use LME, and the hops. Boiled for an hour, cooled, and pitched yeast.

[Halgarmeister]

OOH!!! I think I might be able to do that! :eek: LOL

How long did you ferment it and then how long to mature? Not that I'm in a great hurry, but you know, next week is just around the corner... <wink wink>

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
OOH!!! I think I might be able to do that! :eek: LOL

How long did you ferment it and then how long to mature? Not that I'm in a great hurry, but you know, next week is just around the corner... <wink wink>

Here is the point I run out of exact info as I don't keep notes. I let one BW sit for 6 months approx in secondary. You will need a second fermenter as you can't let the beer sit too long on it's primary yeast bed(trub). The primary fermentation will not take too much time. I would let it sit in secon for some time and tansfer and finish aging in bottle. The aging will be affected by your hop usage and how high you drive up the opening gravity.

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks Worty, I'll definitely do more looking into doing a BW, and soon!


BTW, please don't take my responses as flippant. I sincerely appreciate your input. I try to be jovial about my postings and if this were any other forum I could liberally use the smilies, but we're only allowed ONE smilie per post here. How are we supposed to be obvious about our sarcasm and jokes with only ONE smilie!! :confused: LOL <wink wink>

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
Thanks Worty, I'll definitely do more looking into doing a BW, and soon!


BTW, please don't take my responses as flippant. I sincerely appreciate your input. I try to be jovial about my postings and if this were any other forum I could liberally use the smilies, but we're only allowed ONE smilie per post here. How are we supposed to be obvious about our sarcasm and jokes with only ONE smilie!! :confused: LOL <wink wink>

I had thought as much, no problem. Also, being a goalie means I thought a fiippant was the name give to a flip shot were the puck ends up in my shorts.

[Halgarmeister]

Quick question...


I'm getting ready to prime and rack my last batch. The directions I've always followed recommended 3/4c priming sugar to 5 gallons. While getting supplies this time, I purchased several pounds of priming sugar, the label says that 2c = 1.5% increase in ABV. I've always had good carbonation results with the 3/4c for priming, however, my target ABV has been 1.5 to 2% too low.

My question is: Will nearly 3 times the sugar affect the carbonation (too much, possibly blow bottles??? ), or should that be fine and only increase the expected ABV?

Recipe is:

7# PA LME
1/2# Munich Malt grain
1/2# Wheat Malt grain
1/2oz hallertaur (60 min )
1/2oz Tettanger (30 min )
1oz Saaz (5 min )
Wyeast 001

All previous batches used 3/4c priming sugar.

[Mill Rat]

Stick with the 3/4 c. of corn sugar. You risk doing far too much damage at this point by overcarbonating. (We need a "duck and cover" smiley here.)

[wortchillergoal]

Go with the 3/4 cup. People will tell you stories about exploding bottles with bodily injury and property damage. They are true as well.

[Halgarmeister]

That was kind of my thinking as well. Even though I use growlers and not 12oz bottles, I still didn't want to risk grenading anything.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.


Just curious though, why would 2c of sugar be "recommended" or implied as a good thing if overcarbing/exploding bottles becomes a factor?

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
Just curious though, why would 2c of sugar be "recommended" or implied as a good thing if overcarbing/exploding bottles becomes a factor?
The 2c = +1.5%ABV you noted would be for the addition of the sugar to the wort prior to fermentation, not at bottling. Since it is completely fermentable, it will convert efficiently to alcohol. Since it has no other flavors other than the sugar's sweetness, it will add negligibly to the beer's flavor. This is how the BMC brewers produce a product with significant alcohol and insignificant flavor.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by Mill Rat
The 2c = +1.5%ABV you noted would be for the addition of the sugar to the wort prior to fermentation, not at bottling.

So your saying that this could be a good way to get my ABV from 4ish upto the 5 - 5.5% that I've been looking for?

One of my struggles, beyond creating an adequate clone was to get the ABV in the 5 - 5.5 range. Every batch has been 4% or less. I'm not necessarily looking for high ABV brews, my goal has been to reproduce the pubs offering, then reduce the alcohol/calorie content from there.

[Mill Rat]

Originally posted by Halgarmeister
So your saying that this could be a good way to get my ABV from 4ish upto the 5 - 5.5% that I've been looking for?

One of my struggles, beyond creating an adequate clone was to get the ABV in the 5 - 5.5 range. Every batch has been 4% or less. I'm not necessarily looking for high ABV brews, my goal has been to reproduce the pubs offering, then reduce the alcohol/calorie content from there.

Rather than using corn sugar, I'd use plain light DME or LME to add fermentable sugars, because they'll contribute flavor, too. You'll do yourself a favor by getting brewing software (promash and beersmith are the majors in this market) to take some of the guesswork out. Also, that Munich and wheat malt should give you a little more sugar if you'll mini-mash them instead of just steeping them. It would also cut down on starch-related problems in your final product.

[Halgarmeister]

Thanks mill rat. Several batches ago I bumped my LME from 6 pounds to 7, and I've switched to liquid yeast. I finally got around to racking my last batch last night (2-1/2 weeks in fermenter ) and the finished ABV was 4.5. IF the priming sugar will increase the ABV, then I'm estimating the conditioned beer to be between 5 and 5.25%, which has been my target mark.

I stuck with the 3/4c per 5 gallon ratio, though it was a strong 3/4c and I netted 4 gallons, so it's a little stronger ratio. I probably could have gotten another 1/2 gallon out of the fermenter but I lost the siphon and it was too much of a pain to try to get a new one going without disturbing the spent yeast deposits. It would also help to have a longer racking cane for the larger 6.5 gallon carboy.

Side note, I've not accounted for the priming sugar in the final ABV before, so any previous batches with a low count would have been 1/2 to 1% higher.

[Halgarmeister]

Well, while I wouldn't call it a failure, my last batch is NOT what I expected or wanted. I'm really at a loss as to why.

I am brewing a pale ale and all attempts have had reasonable results with varying degrees of success. It seems the harder I try to get everything perfect, the further from my goal I get.

The recipe, for reference:

7# pale ale LME
1/2 oz Hallertaur (bittering ) 60 min
1/2 oz Tettanger (flavor ) 30 min
1 oz Saaz (aroma ) 5 min
1/2 tsp Irish moss (10 min )
Wyeast 001
1/2# Wheat malt & 1/2# Munich malt (steeped in 1+ quarts of water for 30 min @ 155 )

This turned out as more of a Hef than a PA. It's got the customary "grain" flavor and is very cloudy, though without the typical "fruity" flavor of your typical Hef. At first, I thought that the flavor was off because I'd just had a pint at the pub of a much stronger brew, however, a subsequent pint of my home brew is still the same Hef like flavor as the initial taste. My girlfriend confirmed the taste.

Of all the batches, this one seemed to go the smoothest. Brew times were carefully watched, steeping temps and time of the grains were carefully watched. Sanitation is always carefully watched. When I racked this batch, the flavor seemed to be exactly what I was shooting for, just typical for warm, flat beer. Now that it's conditioned for 10 days it's well carbonated, but far more cloudy than I anticipated and definitely has the Hef flavor going on.

I would hope that longer conditioning will help, however, past experience tells me that the flavor will stay the same, it's the harsh characteristics that smooth out. This beer doesn't have any harshness to it, it's just a Hef, not a PA.

From these ramblings, does anyone have an opinion as to why it's more "wheaty" in flavor than usual?