Cardboard Taste

[mmmBeer...]

My beer usually doesn’t last more than a month after the bottle conditioning is complete. However, friends of mine asked me to brew up 10 gallons for their wedding. They had about 12 bottles left after the wedding (the beer was brewed about 3 months ago), and when I visited this weekend they offered me a bottle. Since I have never had a batch last that long I thought I would try it.

I didn’t like it all that much…I found that it had lost almost all of the fruitiness that was there before, and it now has a light cardboard taste. I can’t figure out what has happened to it!

The beer is an extract recipe that is very simple:

6.6# light DME
2 oz Saaz boiling hops
1.5 oz Saaz aroma hops
1.5 lb crystal malt
Lager yeast

¾ cup of corn sugar at bottling

It was fermented at ale temp to give it a fruity flavour, spent 1 week in primary, 2.5 weeks in secondary and then 3 months in the bottle.

If this is what is going to happen to the beer over a few months I am glad I finish it while it is younger.

I know that using corn sugar in the beer is supposed to create this flavour, but I haven’t used enough of it affect the flavour.

Any thoughts as to what happened?

[sallad]

i think oxidation is supposed to contribute to cardboard flavors. the standard bottle caps aren't completely oxygen proof- some air can seep through. there are bottle caps that are supposed to prevent this, but they are more expensive. i've never had a problem with this, but then i haven't had beer last more than a couple months either. i do have a few bottles tucked away that are nearly a year old that i ought to try for this very reason!

[mmmBeer...]

Could the use of PET bottles contribute to oxidization? I could be wrong, but I thought that I read that PET is not completely oxygen-proof.

[wortchillergoal]

My experience with older bottled homebrew has been positive. I have had beer over a year taste just fine. Some beers will change their character over time as the hops mellow. I have had a couple bottles not fare well, but they are a small minority. It could be you got hold of the only bad bottle of the bunch. You might want to check your capper. The other suggestion about using high quality caps as compared to bargin basement variety is a good point also.

[paul84043]

I agree, my experience with beers that have sat for a while has been very good.

Splashing hot wort (above, say 100 degrees) is supposed to be the number one cause of "cardboard flavors", it's possible that the stronger flavor of the green beer was masking this and as it aged and mellowed, it became more prominent.

I would think that if your caps were leaking, the C02 would leak out first before oxygen leaked in. I would expect it to be flat before the oxygen became a problem.

[brewmonkey]

Cardboard/wet paper is an off flavor from oxidation.

Check out www.bjcp.org

or look here for some more info on off flavors.

http://members.tripod.com/~mksgrist/_vti_hbart/off_flavors.html

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
Cardboard/wet paper is an off flavor from oxidation.

Check out www.bjcp.org

or look here for some more info on off flavors.

http://members.tripod.com/~mksgrist/_vti_hbart/off_flavors.html

brewmonkey: Great information, thanks!

[MagTheGrate]

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html

Roughly the same information, without the hard to read background.

-Mag

[fuji6100]

Good info there brewmonkey! I noticed a grassy taste in my last pilsner, and according to your info source, that's from prematurly cracked/poorly stored grain.

I keep my grains in airtight storage containers (the kind that you would keep sugar, flour, cornmeal ect... in, with the flip down grolsch style lid) but I have to keep them pre-cracked since I don't have a mill of my own and it takes 4-7 days for an order to arrive from the homebrew shop I order from.

Any suggestions to keep my grain from going bad?

(Before I read that link, I assumed I overhopped...)

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by fuji6100
Good info there brewmonkey! I noticed a grassy taste in my last pilsner, and according to your info source, that's from prematurly cracked/poorly stored grain.

I keep my grains in airtight storage containers (the kind that you would keep sugar, flour, cornmeal ect... in, with the flip down grolsch style lid) but I have to keep them pre-cracked since I don't have a mill of my own and it takes 4-7 days for an order to arrive from the homebrew shop I order from.

Any suggestions to keep my grain from going bad?

(Before I read that link, I assumed I overhopped...)

Once your grain is milled it starts to reabsorb moisture from the air. This can cause reduced mash efficiency as well as off flavors in the finished product.

If you do not have the ability to mill your own, order from a company that will or ask yours to ship in airtight bags/containers. Keeping you malt away from as much of the atmosphere will help extend its shelf life some.

Grassy is possible from hops, even with out overhopping. Hops with a high Co-Humulone (above 25%) can impart a harsh or grassy flavor to the beer. Cascade (33%-40%) or Centennial (29%-30%) are two of the hops that come to mind that have this ability. In a Pilsner I would guess that used Saaz which falls on the edge of the 25% at 24-28%.

Co-Humulone is one of the three major components of Alpha Acids with the other two being humulone and adhumulone. It is believed by many brewers that a high level of co-humulone will impart harsh flavors and it is something we look at when formulating a recipe and selecting hops.

Sometimes higher and even the super alpha hops are low in co-humulone and a good choice for late kettle additions. You can use less and achieve the bitterness you are looking for. Some of the super alpha's out there are Horizon coming in at 13% Alpha Acid with 16-19% Co-Humulone and GERMAN Magnum at 12-14% AA with 24% Co-Humulone and SIMCOE at 14% and 15-20% Co-Humulone.

I have seen the above come in with low Co-humulone and higher AA%. I have seen the Horizin as high as 19% AA and the Magnum at 17%. The Magnum is a great choice for lagers and pilsners where you are trying to avoid using alot of hops and avoiding the harsh flavors.

Czech Saaz is border line on the Co-Humulone but with such a low AA% you need to use more. It is acceptable in my book to use a super AA late and then finish with the Saaz.

[fuji6100]

Thanks for the info Brewmonkey! I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain again. Do you think it would be feasable to order my grains uncracked and then use the ziplock bag and rolling pin cracking method just before I brew? I haven't heard how well this works...

[brewmonkey]

What's left of my brain is always available for picking.

I have not tried that method, but give it a whirl and see what happens. I would expect that your efficiency will vary with each batch as there is no uniform crush with it.

[YamahaXS]

I used a rolling pinned on my last batch which used about a pound of crystal (i think).

It is a bit tedious. and use the heavy bag you can b/c i noticed that some puncturing of the medium weight ziplock bag i used. For small quantities, it works fine. Just be prepared to spend about 10 -15 minutes / pound.


thanks again for the chemistry Brewmonkey. Where did you learn this stuff?

[brewmonkey]

I have read a buttload of books. When I took over the brewhouse I had no formal training and only a year in there so if I wanted to keep the job I figured I better start learning. I also spent alot of time going to other breweries and picking the brains of my friends.

A good source for a lot of info is at www.bjcp.org

If you really want to get involved in brewing check it out and get with a local club. Study and take the exam and become a judge, you will learn a bunch just by doing that! The BJCP is always looking for people. If you hear a competition is going to be in the area, volunteer to help. If you cannot judge, be a steward.

I would suggest reading "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" by the late Dr. Fix

"Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels

All the Classic Beer Styles series by the various authors as well as all the published info on the web. If you dont already subscribe I would suggest BYO (Brew your own) and/or Zymurgy.

If you join the AHA you will get a subscription to zymurgy as well as become eligible for the pub discount program. They have the info on www.AOB.org.

I do not work for any of the above, I just believe in their work and efforts. Support them if you can.