The Best of The bottom

[hopjack13]

what are the best of the bottom fermented beers???
im not really in to pilsners/lagers , i like my ales.
however i would like to explore the other end of fermentation.
bottom fermented beers, i guess the macros kinda killed it for me.
a lot of the bottom fermented beers i've tried are mass produced.
i know there are others from around the world that are most likely good (this is what im interested in), but i normally stick to american craft beers or trappist. i haven't tried a lot of imports, i know most american lagers are all basicly the same, but what about other parts of the world? i have tried paulner (sp?) and urquel, both good , but what are some of your suggestions,what are some of the best?

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by hopjack13
what are the best of the bottom fermented beers???
im not really in to pilsners/lagers , i like my ales.
however i would like to explore the other end of fermentation.
bottom fermented beers, i guess the macros kinda killed it for me.
a lot of the bottom fermented beers i've tried are mass produced.
i know there are others from around the world that are most likely good (this is what im interested in), but i normally stick to american craft beers or trappist. i haven't tried a lot of imports, i know most american lagers are all basicly the same, but what about other parts of the world? i have tried paulner (sp?) and urquel, both good , but what are some of your suggestions,what are some of the best?

Ther are good bocks and double bocks. During the weekend I am going to see an old friend who will give me the name of a good Canadian eisbock to die for, I will forward that to you.

[steveh]

Hopjack - your timing is perfect - the latest edition of the Oktoberfests are hitting the shelves. I had my first Spaten Ur-Marzen of the season last night; copper colored with a dense, creamy, white head. Rich, malty nose with a touch of diacetyl (proper for style), the malts become more pronounced as it warms. Sweet malty flavor with the slightest of hops in the finish.

Spaten's Gabriel Sedelmayer invented this style back in the mid 1800s, and his legacy is living on - if not at the Oktoberfest grounds, at least in my 1/2 liter glass at home!

Paulaner and Hacker-Pschorr also have good Oktoberfests in the amber variety, but Hofbrauhaus' example is closer to the lighter colored beer being served at the fest grounds since 1991 or so. Still a good beer with a clean, malty flavor - but maybe a little less character than the amber styles.

There are many good micro Oktoberfests coming out too, Capital's of Madison, WI is great this year. And Capital also brews some other great lagers; seasonal and year round.

Any beer connoisseur worth his mettle should respect and understand (if not enjoy - I'm no big fan of the Lambic style, but I respect its place in the beer family tree) the differences between top and bottom fermented beers. Lagers have received an undeserved bad rap because the Macros tend toward a light lager style of beer. This tendency has grown due more to market trend and acceptance over the last century than a drive to brew a good lager style beer. You can stand a Miller Genuine Draft alongside a Spaten Helles, a Warsteiner Pils, or a Pilsner Urquell and tasting will reveal the American cousin to be a far distant relative.

Prosit!
S.

[chazwicke]

Well I would have to recommend Budvar (Chechvar in the US). And also Staropramen. Both fine pilsener style Lagers that are consistantly among the best. I, however, am like you, I love those ales! Wort, perhaps the Canadian Eisbock you are looking for is Niagra Falls Eisbock. I don't know if they are still around but that beer was excellent and I believe was the progenetor of the ice beer revival. Sorry to say that the macros also managed to ruin Ice beer too.

[sallad]

i've found that a few brewpubs offer may offer a lager or pilsner. Nodding Head in philly has a good light lager that is well balanced a bit towards malty. good body and good flavor! american lager does not and should not = coors/bud/miller!

[steveh]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Well I would have to recommend Budvar (Chechvar in the US). And also Staropramen. Both fine pilsener style Lagers that are consistantly among the best. I, however, am like you, I love those ales! Wort, perhaps the Canadian Eisbock you are looking for is Niagra Falls Eisbock. I don't know if they are still around but that beer was excellent and I believe was the progenetor of the ice beer revival. Sorry to say that the macros also managed to ruin Ice beer too.

I agree with Star being a great brew, a local Bohemian restaurant keeps it on draft and it's wonderful on a hot day. I tried Budvar in Europe a few years back, I wasn't terribly impressed - given all of the press it was getting. I'd still recommend it just to rattle A-B, but I need to give it a current assessment.

A point of history, the influx of Ice beer in North America really wasn't a revival so much as a discovery. At the time the Macros started cashing in on a gimmick (none of them really brewed it in the same tradition of the Germans), KulmBacherReichelbrau was still making its Eisbock by brewing big, lagering cold enough to freeze the water in the beer, then removing the ice to create a strong brew.

I remember hearing that Miller's Ice House was frozen, skimmed of ice, then cut with water to bring it to an acceptable level of alcohol for the government - why do they bother with the style?

One Canadian brewery froze the water in the beer, then brought it back to temp and let the ice melt back into the beer - someone wasn't getting the idea.

S.

[wortchillergoal]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Wort, perhaps the Canadian Eisbock you are looking for is Niagra Falls Eisbock. I don't know if they are still around but that beer was excellent and I believe was the progenetor of the ice beer revival. Sorry to say that the macros also managed to ruin Ice beer too.

It could be but I think when he got the bottle as a gift from a friend they talked about a brewery in a remote part more north in Cananda. Yet I also point out I am a goalie and too many pucks to the head have taken a toll on my memory process.

[newportstorm]

....but most tend to be seasonal :( Spring and fall bring forth plenty of good lager choices brewed in the US - Smuttynose Maibock & Octoberfest Lager, Otter Creek's new Vermont Lager, Newport Storm Regenschauer Ofest, Victory Prima Pils & Festbier, etc., etc.

I never took to Spaten lagers. To me, they taste scarily similar to Heineken. Why bother? I think Paulaner and Hacker have better lagers in their portfolio.

And don't forget the Bocks. Many are best fresh but some can stand up to further cellaring. Sam Adams Double Bock is a widely available bock that is easy to drink and is a good introduction to the style. Not the pinnacle, but good enough to give you a taste of what lies ahead.

Good luck with your quest to find tasty "bottom-feeders". Cheers!

[hopjack13]

i've tried the victory prima pils......
wheat??? does it have wheat in it ? it wasn't like any pilsner i have ever tasted..i thought i could taste wheat...:confused:

[hops99]

The great lakes area has plenty of tasty lagers to choose from. I'd recommend the Dortmunder Gold and Eliot Ness lagers from the Great Lakes brewery in Cleveland - they're both fantastic. Also, as someone mentioned, Capital makes some nice lagers (especially the Oktoberfest and Maibock), and the Penn Brewery in Pittsburgh makes some outstanding lagers - their Penn Pilsner and Penn Dark are terrific.

IMO, most people don't appreciate how challenging it is to make a good, clean lager. I think it's much harder to make a quality lager than it is a good ale.

[warmstorage]

Originally posted by hops99

IMO, most people don't appreciate how challenging it is to make a good, clean lager. I think it's much harder to make a quality lager than it is a good ale. i agree wholeheartedly, and also with the endorsements of Great Lakes.

as to the original question, this is sort of a vague answer, but i was AMAZED nearly every time i stopped at a brewpub in Canada and tasted all the beers available. those Canadians know how to make lagers and pilsner styles extraordinarily well.

on our way to alaska, my best friend and i stopped every time we could, after crossing over in Minnesota. particular memories include: River City Brewing Co, in Winnipeg, Manitoba, and Brewsters Brewing Co., in Edmonton, Alberta (a chain, 12 in all in Western Canada, but the two i tried were quite good.)

so if one in search of good lagers also had a hankering for a road trip...

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by hopjack13
i've tried the victory prima pils......
wheat??? does it have wheat in it ? it wasn't like any pilsner i have ever tasted..i thought i could taste wheat...:confused:


Prima Pils is a little different but I'm unsure of any wheat in the grain bill. It is a little fuller and hoppier than many classic pilsners - less of spicy Saaz hops and more grassy/earthy. Still a good, refreshing beer. Their website made no mention of wheat as an ingredient, but everyone's palate is different.

And I wholeheartedly agree about Great Lakes lagers. Their Dortmunder Gold is probably the best lager I've ever had (how did I forget about it?). I also agree that producing a good "clean" lager is much more difficult than brewing most ales. Lager flavors are very subtle and delicate for the most part and any error in the process will stick out like a sore thumb.

Cheers!

[barley ben]

I have never made a lager that wasn't good and clean.

Oh yeah, thats because I have never made lager at all!!!

[tubetek]

Howdy All-
If you want real beer flavor and kick in a lager, try the Doppelbocks...Any beer with the name that ends in "ator" such as
Spaten's Optimator"; Loads o' malt and character with controlled bitterness. WARNING!!! These beers are by definition high-gravity
(plenty alcohol) and very smooth...Easy to overdo until you develop respect for the potential.
Enjoy

[toneyc]

I recently tried Spaten Optimator and Paulaner Salvator. Both were good, Salvator was *wow*.

:)
Toney.

[Beerconnoisseur]

Try Tucher's Doppelbock, if you can find it. Much like Paulaner Salvator, but seems to have even more malty goodness. :)

[steveh]

Originally posted by newportstorm
I never took to Spaten lagers. To me, they taste scarily similar to Heineken. Why bother? I think Paulaner and Hacker have better lagers in their portfolio.

While I'll agree that Paulaner and Hacker-Pschorr (as well as Augustiner, Hoffbrau and Munchner Lowenbrau) make great lagers, I can't say I agree with a Spaten/Heineken comparison. Heineken has always had a sharper, more chemical flavor to me. Spaten (the general Helles) is smooth and malty, very refreshing, to me.

And I heartily agree with the recommendations of Great Lakes Brewing's lagers - great examples.

S.

[Bryant]

Hmm........ I'll give my same reply as I did in the "fall back beer" post. A beer that I really enjoy is Harp Lager brewed by Guiness (but brewed in Canada for North America.) I am a bit of a hop-head (though I like Poters non-bitter) and Harp is pretty "hoppy" for a lager. In fact, there are times when I prefer it over an IPA or ESB because it gives some of the best of both.


Bryant

[steveh]

Originally posted by Bryant Hmm........ I am a bit of a hop-head and Harp is pretty "hoppy" for a lager.

If you enjoy hoppy lagers, or just hoppy beer in general, try a Pilsner Urquell. I know you said that pickins are slim in your area, but it's worth seeking out. Just be sure that you get a fresh six-pack that hasn't been light-struck, those green bottles can be killers.

I like German/Bohemian lagers better than U.K. style lager (Harp, Sam Smith), the U.K.s seem to not be as clean tasting and (to me) that's important in a lager, but enjoy a Harp once in a while. Given a choice, I'd take an Urquell over a Harp.

S.

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by steveh
If you enjoy hoppy lagers, or just hoppy beer in general, try a Pilsner Urquell. I know you said that pickins are slim in your area, but it's worth seeking out. Just be sure that you get a fresh six-pack that hasn't been light-struck, those green bottles can be killers...


If you can find PU on tap you'll really enjoy - it's scrum-diddly-icious. The bottles are always a gamble :( I wonder if anyone has ever sent an email to the PU guys complaining about those green bottles. If they have an email address then I'm going to.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by steveh

I like German/Bohemian lagers better than U.K. style lager (Harp, Sam Smith), the U.K.s seem to not be as clean tasting and (to me) that's important in a lager, but enjoy a Harp once in a while. Given a choice, I'd take an Urquell over a Harp.

S.

I"d agree with that assertion. A good clean precision German Lager or Czech Pisner is tough to beat when you are in the mood. It is much easier to spot flaws in lagers than in ales. Slight variations are magnified. I am an ale man myself, but I do enjoy quite a few lagers as well. Especially in the warmer weather. It's been about a decade since I last brewed my own. If I remember, Lagers were much harder to make than ales. Especially Pilsners. Beginning with keeping the temperatures lower and choosing the right hop. Am I correct about this homebrewers?

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I"d agree with that assertion. A good clean precision German Lager or Czech Pisner is tough to beat when you are in the mood. It is much easier to spot flaws in lagers than in ales. Slight variations are magnified. I am an ale man myself, but I do enjoy quite a few lagers as well. Especially in the warmer weather. It's been about a decade since I last brewed my own. If I remember, Lagers were much harder to make than ales. Especially Pilsners. Beginning with keeping the temperatures lower and choosing the right hop. Am I correct about this homebrewers?

Noticeably more attention required....temp, water quality, things like diacetyl rests, lagering - but when you hit the nail on the head - hallelujah is it good.

It is pretty well established which hops should make it into a pils.

[chazwicke]

Yep I know. Saaz. I grow them in my yard

[Fast_Eddy]

Originally posted by chazwicke
Yep I know. Saaz. I grow them in my yard

A lot of the time, yeah, Saaz - 'specially for czech pils. But not always - most nobles will do. You can use Hallertau (Hersbrucker/Mittelfruh), Spalter, Tettnanger,for instance, if you are staying with German Aroma hops.

[hnrblbrbrn]

Originally posted by tubetek
Howdy All-
If you want real beer flavor and kick in a lager, try the Doppelbocks...Any beer with the name that ends in "ator" such as
Spaten's Optimator"; Loads o' malt and character with controlled bitterness.
Enjoy

Doppelbocks rule for this time of year, the big beers seem to start showing up more now.

[hops99]

Has anyone tried Leinenkugel's "Big Butt" Doppel, and if so, is it decent? I've always thought that Leinie's brews were hit-or-miss, but I've never tried their attempt at a Doppel....

[chazwicke]

Congrats on your 100th post Hopps99.

[Jeff]

It has been awhile since I had the Big Butt. I thought it was good, but that isn't saying a lot. If I remember right, it doesn't seem as dark or heavy as other dopplebocks I've had.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy
If you can find PU on tap you'll really enjoy - it's scrum-diddly-icious. The bottles are always a gamble

In the last few months I've probably bought 4 or 5 12 packs (fully enclosed) of P.U. and not had any trouble with staleness or skunking. I can't attest to the straight six packs.

Also, the bottles seem to have more hop nose and flavor than the tap selection, but I like the tap too.

S.

[steveh]

Originally posted by Fast_Eddy A lot of the time, yeah, Saaz - 'specially for czech pils. But not always - most nobles will do. You can use Hallertau (Hersbrucker/Mittelfruh), Spalter, Tettnanger,for instance, if you are staying with German Aroma hops.

And Styrian Goldings -- mmmmmm.

S.

[studentofbeer]

as for lagers, ive really been enjoying black lagers recently. one in bottle ive really liked was Monchshof Schwarzbier (they call it the "black pils"), and goose island has made a pretty tasty schwarz available on draft.

im not a huge lager fan either (only lagers ive been drinking recently is some spaten marzen and a few other things from germany like braurei state detmolder pils and dunkel, which i got from some germans and am not sure if it's available in the us, but was very good, especially the pils), but the schwarzbier style i find very relaxing and tasty.

[Bryant]

Originally posted by steveh
If you enjoy hoppy lagers, or just hoppy beer in general, try a Pilsner Urquell. I know you said that pickins are slim in your area, but it's worth seeking out. Just be sure that you get a fresh six-pack that hasn't been light-struck, those green bottles can be killers.

I like German/Bohemian lagers better than U.K. style lager (Harp, Sam Smith), the U.K.s seem to not be as clean tasting and (to me) that's important in a lager, but enjoy a Harp once in a while. Given a choice, I'd take an Urquell over a Harp.

S.

I bought a six of Pilsner Urquell today. I have had it on several occasions but it has been a while so I picked some up. It is fairly hoppy but it has a bit of that "green bottle beer" taste that I find common in many beers with...... well..... green bottles. I don't have a word for that particular flavor, but it's a certain twang that I don't care for. The beer is not bad at all, but I prefer the Harp. I also like the Samuel Smith beers (PA and nut brown ale are good, and the porter is fair), but they are pretty pricey but I don't recall trying a SS lager.

Bryant

[Brownbeard]

Sam Smith has that Organic brew, I can't remember if they call it a pilsner or just a lager. I am sure I have seen it, green and white label. I love all the SS brews. The Oatmeal Stout is my favorite commercial brew.

[steveh]

[i]Originally posted by Bryant [i]I bought a six of Pilsner Urquell today. I have had it on several occasions but it has been a while so I picked some up. It is fairly hoppy but it has a bit of that "green bottle beer" taste that I find common in many beers with...... well..... green bottles. I don't have a word for that particular flavor, but it's a certain twang that I don't care for. The beer is not bad at all, but I prefer the Harp.[/B]

Although being a six-pack I could see the PU being "skunky" (that's probably the word you're looking for), but I think that beer drinkers have heard about "green bottle syndrome" for so long that they're being psychologically swayed just by seeing a green bottle.

I've been drinking Urquell and Dinkel-Acker out of green bottles regularly for a couple years now (my local has good prices on 12 packs) and haven't had a problem with skunkiness at all - never.

I recall trying Heineken, in my rookie days of beer sampling, and getting that obvious skunk. Some of that was also due to the beer being served at U.S. beer temps, when served at the suggested 45 F, you can actually taste malt!

Getting the beers fresh, getting them in fully-encased packaging, serving them properly, I believe GBS can be completely avoided. It's worked for me.

I also like the Samuel Smith beers (PA and nut brown ale are good, and the porter is fair), but they are pretty pricey but I don't recall trying a SS lager.[/B]

I'm pretty sure they still brew it.

S.

[chazwicke]

The Pilsner Urquell is the really the only beer that I have had that has been affected by light. I know its not as huge a problem as we make it out to be on some of the threads on this board but I can say PU is one beer that I have definitlely found to be skunked on occasion. (I usually try the Czechvar). PU is a fine beer and I have been to the brewery in Pilsn. It is excellent when fresh. Another beer that was good but was greatly affected by sunlight was the old Chesbay. I am convinced that skunked beer played a big role in this early microbreweries demise. I also visited Chesbay brewery in Virginia Beach while it was open. It was a very early east coast brewery. 1983 - 85 era.



I think the Taddy Porter is the best SS beer.

[ron]

Pilsner Urquel is pretty good, but does sometimes tend toward skunkiness. All the SS beers are good and I like the nut brown ale best.

[Bryant]

I have not had a big problem with beers having the odd "twang" (or skunkiness if you will) in them, but it has happened on occasion. The beer that started me on my journey of the search of the finer beers in life was Moosehead, and I have had problems from time to time finding them that taste as fresh as I like. While my palette has evolved considerably, Moosehead is still my favorite Canadian Lager and it is disappointing when I grab some that aren't optimal. Where I live it is quite possible the distributors are not taking care of their product.

Bryant