How long is too long a lag?

[michaewa]

As some of you may have read, I brewed batch #2 yesterday early morning. Newcastle clone, and I used a starter from a wyeast tube made up the night before.

My starter never foamed on top, but had a layer of white sediment on the bottom, so I assumed it was ok and pitched it after siphoning from my brew kettle to the glass primary. I was worried about heat during shipping damaging the yeast, but this (http://www.stpats.com/yeastinf.htm) led me to think otherwise.

I'm now over 30 hours out, and nothing doing in the primary - just another layer of sediment on the bottom and no change in the OG (1.044). I aerated the crap out of it this morning with a long handled spoon just in case. It is between 72-74 in my brew room.

Are these just new brew jitters, or should I consider re-pitching some more yeast? How long is too long for the primary to take off? Any advice or experience is appreciated.

[Tweek]

it could still take off in theory. but in reality you are in the danger zone. After 12 or so hours your chance of an infection taking over is increasing by the minute.

This is not to make you panic. The is no point in panicking. I have had beers that lagged WAAAAAAY longer than 30 hours and were great and ones that lagged only 4 and I wouldnt give to my enemy, well maybe to my enemy.

If you ahve the option to repitch I would go ahead and do that. If not just sit back and wait only time will tell.


Cheers.

[ray m]

You're screwed...send to me immediately for proper analysis:D

No, seriously...I'd do what Tweek said---pitch more yeast. If you don't have confidence in the strain that's in there now, consider getting another strain with similar characteristics that won't take your clone out of style...like get London or British Ale in place of English---make sure it's fresh. Make a starter, wait a day, & pitch it after aerating the living hell out of your wort. I've been brewing for 4 years and still get curveballs thrown at me in one form or another...you are getting your first one of many to come---you'll start getting used to them and you won't sweat them as much. Don't worry, have a homebrew!!! I'm sure all will turn out well...

Ray

[Beerconnoisseur]

I've only used White Lab strains from MoreBeer, and never been disappointed with the results. Beer can take up to a few days for fermentation to begin, but if gets closer to a week with no results, you may need to repitch.

[YamahaXS]

I suggest you repitch, though I suspect that if you wait you will see activity soon. The problem is that if you do wait, and DON"T see activity then you have to repitch, which also will have its own lag time. So repitch now, see activity in 6-10 hours for sure.


Now, if you practiced exceptional sanitation procedures, I might be a little more willing to wait.

[Tom C]

Try and find a pitchable or ready pitch strain of the yeast and throw it in. Wyeast and White Labs each have these.

Tom C

p.s. I hope you used an original newcastle recipe and not the current. I have found the best way to replicate the newest newcastle is to turn on the tap and place mug underneath. Newcastle was a great beer when it first came out...so sad

[michaewa]

My sanitation was pretty good I think - I used to work as a surgical orderly in college so got a pretty good lesson in sterile technique :)

I stirred to beat the band again last night with no luck, so I'm off to get some new yeast.

In reading more posts I think I may have way underestimated the aeration needed - I siphoned from my kettle to the glass primary, thinking at the time that the action of the wort draining in there would suffice, and did little other shaking up before pitch #1.

After reading that most of you guys use the O2 stone, pour into water in the primary (when not doing a full boil), or something similar, I may have just not given it a chance to propagate.

There is a pretty thick layer of white sediment on the bottom - I wonder if that is the original yeast that just did a partial job, but my gravity reading yesterday was the same as when I brewed.

Thanks for the advice, I'll let you know how it turns out.

PS - in despair, I turned to a bottle from my first batch - one that was underfilled at the end of bottling. It was a KC wheat (hometown pride) that had only been in the bottle for about 4 days, and was damn good. Very encouraging!

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by michaewa
My sanitation was pretty good I think - I used to work as a surgical orderly in college so got a pretty good lesson in sterile technique :)

I stirred to beat the band again last night with no luck, so I'm off to get some new yeast.

In reading more posts I think I may have way underestimated the aeration needed - I siphoned from my kettle to the glass primary, thinking at the time that the action of the wort draining in there would suffice, and did little other shaking up before pitch #1.

After reading that most of you guys use the O2 stone, pour into water in the primary (when not doing a full boil), or something similar, I may have just not given it a chance to propagate.

There is a pretty thick layer of white sediment on the bottom - I wonder if that is the original yeast that just did a partial job, but my gravity reading yesterday was the same as when I brewed.

Thanks for the advice, I'll let you know how it turns out.

PS - in despair, I turned to a bottle from my first batch - one that was underfilled at the end of bottling. It was a KC wheat (hometown pride) that had only been in the bottle for about 4 days, and was damn good. Very encouraging!

You could use the trub from that batch as your yeast for the second batch. Collect a cup or so, add a pint of water, let the heavy stuff settle out, pour the water into another pint - leaving the sediment behind (its castings, hop bits, protiens) and you end up with the suspended yeast.

cheers and beers!
jeff

[michaewa]

Went all out - got an aeration stone and some white labs yeast, bubbled 'er up and pitched again this afternoon. I even got some yeast nutrient (which I forgot to add) just in case. If this doesn't work I'm going to go ahead and bottle it and mail it to my enemies.

Yamaha (and others)- that is something I've been interested in doing, but have a question. I haven't settled on a brew I like yet, and am wondering how important the yeast is to the flavor?

For example, if I take the yeast from my Newcastle clone and pitch in my next batch (likely an irish stout) will it make a noticable difference? Is it bad form to 'cross' yeast and beer styles, or more a marketing issue for the folks at Wyeast and White Labs?

[Beerconnoisseur]

Yeast affects flavor quite a bit.

If you are planning on crossing yeast strains, from what I've read, you want to keep two batches going with separate yeast strains, then cross them at the last minute. Otherwise, one yeast will tend to predominate to the detriment of the other.

[YamahaXS]

Originally posted by michaewa
Went all out - got an aeration stone and some white labs yeast, bubbled 'er up and pitched again this afternoon. I even got some yeast nutrient (which I forgot to add) just in case. If this doesn't work I'm going to go ahead and bottle it and mail it to my enemies.

Yamaha (and others)- that is something I've been interested in doing, but have a question. I haven't settled on a brew I like yet, and am wondering how important the yeast is to the flavor?

For example, if I take the yeast from my Newcastle clone and pitch in my next batch (likely an irish stout) will it make a noticable difference? Is it bad form to 'cross' yeast and beer styles, or more a marketing issue for the folks at Wyeast and White Labs?

Hmmm... I can completely relate to what you are saying. I brewed for a while looking for that one beer.... Well, I found the beer in time, but in hindsight I could of found it a lot quicker. Palmer has a diagram that places beer on according to their sweetness/bitterness and fruity/malty. see HERE FOR DIAGRAM (http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f111.jpg) .

This should help you zone in on that special beer sooner... turns out I like beer best that is in the lower right corner of the diagram. The table provides the styles associated with that flavor profile...anyway, you get the idea.

As far as yeast goes, yes, yeast can impart flavors especially ale vs lager yeasts. BUT imho, there are usually lots of other factors (e.g. ingrediants, hops, etc...) that taken together far outweigh the impact of a yeast... good luck on that beer!

EDIT: see HERE FOR A THREAD ON CULTURING YEAST (http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=800&highlight=yeast).

[michaewa]

Thanks for referencing that thread. I'm going to give the parallel method a shot - sounds like a great idea. Could save some decent $$.

I was also thinking of trying to make a 'second generation' yeast sample from my vial of white labs. There was a little yeast left in the tube after pitching, so I'm going to pour some sterile wort in there to flush it out, then pour that with about 6-8 oz of wort into another bottle to see if I can coax it out. I'll let you know what happens.

In other news, the batch that started this thread finally took off this morning - total lag of ~72 hours, about 18 since the re-pitch. Looks strong and healthy, thanks for all your advice and patience.

[ray m]

Glad to hear in finally started!...I think all will be fine. :cool:

[Fast_Eddy]

It's great that it's going now.

Actually if this batch turns out good it's just more proof that it's nearly impossible to actually mess up a batch of homebrew.

[brewmonkey]

Originally posted by michaewa
Went all out - got an aeration stone and some white labs yeast, bubbled 'er up and pitched again this afternoon. I even got some yeast nutrient (which I forgot to add) just in case. If this doesn't work I'm going to go ahead and bottle it and mail it to my enemies.

Yamaha (and others)- that is something I've been interested in doing, but have a question. I haven't settled on a brew I like yet, and am wondering how important the yeast is to the flavor?

For example, if I take the yeast from my Newcastle clone and pitch in my next batch (likely an irish stout) will it make a noticable difference? Is it bad form to 'cross' yeast and beer styles, or more a marketing issue for the folks at Wyeast and White Labs?

Oxygenation should NEVER occur after you have pitched, Even if you think you are stuck. I have seen fermentations that looked and made me believe they were stuck, lo and behold they were going along nicely.

Oxygenation post pitch can bring about oxidation of the product. If you are stuck you can rouse the yeast with a quick shake, burst of CO2, or repitch it.

This is a good case for those of us using liquid cultures. I always keep a package of dry yeast around. As I pitch my starter I gently remind the wort what is in store for it should it not take off. I have never had to pitch dry yeast.

[michaewa]

Newcastle clone is getting ready to move to 2ndary, all looks and smells great. After the re-pitch it really took off.

I made another starter of a lager yeast for an Oktoberfest kit I got from AHS, and it has been sitting completely still for >24hrs. Blows my plans to brew tomorrow, I'm afraid I'll have to go buy a replacement at the local store. Even though it is lager it should show some signs of fermentation, shouldn't it?

I'm also trying the parallel method Yamaha mentioned with an Irish Ale Wyeast shipped in the same shipment (got 3 kits at once). I'm afraid that all the yeast may have been fried, despite all the marketing info I've read from the yeast makers stating the extreme temps it can withstand. My advice - spring for the ice pack.

The mini-starter I made by flushing my white labs vial with wort took off however, from now on I'll just pour some wort in there and pop in the fridge for re-use.

Thanks everyone for your input and happy brewing.

[paul84043]

lagers can be tricky, they will "take off" initially, but not the the same extent as an ale yeast, then they settle to the bottom and continue to work slowly from there.

I made a Nut brown ale kit with an Oktoberfest White Labs yeast, it turned out pretty good.
We tend to like the ales better, I like the "busier" flavors, and they sure do get done faster....

I have finally settled into a routine with my yeast...if I expect it to have an O.G. of 1.050 or higher, I will make a starter, if I am using anything other than White Labs, I make a starter regardless.
With "regular" beers, using White Labs, I take the tube out the day before and let it sit. (I shake it when I happen to walk by and remember it's there)
I've been batting 100% with that method with lag times of well under 8 hours.
Starters aren't that big of a deal to make and sure do make a huge difference, but just leaving the tube out for 24 hrs. and letting it start there seems to work out great.

[danno]

Originally posted by brewmonkey
As I pitch my starter I gently remind the wort what is in store for it should it not take off. I have never had to pitch dry yeast.

LMAO !! :D