Line cooling system

[OhAodha]

I just mistakenly posted this to an old thread so here is the update. I just built a line cooling system this week and I am still having problems making it work.

Here is what I did:
I put a large flower vase that holds about 2 gallons of liquid in my fridge and placed a pond pump in the bottom. I ran my 3/16" beer line out the top of my Kegerator, across about 3.5-4 feet and up about 18"-24". I attached 2 3/8" vinyl tube lines to the 3/16th line and insulated them together with foil backed polyfill and surrounding that with rubberized insulation. I did a turnaround inside my tower so all but 3" of beer line comes in contact with the cold liquid. I initially filled the tank with glycol but the temp on the Glycol would not go below 60 degrees. I drained it and replaced it with water and got the water temp down to the high 40s. The line feels cold on the way to the keg. and liquid is flowing. The problem is it still is not keeping me from dumping a lot of foam. My co2 is set below the recommendation for keg balancing so that is not it. I am wondering if the 3/8 vinyl is too thick walled and not conducting enough cold?
The fridge air temp is between 34-42 and my beer temp is 41 so that is good.

If anyone has any ideas let me know. I will post pic of the system when I get a chance but before anyone tries this again they might want to be careful

Thanks

[cwelte]

Can't help with the foam issue...sorry, but I was thinking about doing something similiar in setup so I'd like to see the photos when you get a chance.

[OhAodha]

I think I discovered the problem. With the pump off the water temp is 40 degrees. It jumps to 60 degrees with the pump on. The pump is heating the water. The only way I am going to be able to fix this is with an in-line pump (can't find), or some way to cool the water after the tank.

I am open to any ideas.

Here are some images of my system:

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/7834/dscf21657px.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/2494/dscf21678jv.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/6622/dscf21688eb.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/1453/dscf21691dm.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/4528/dscf21705oy.jpg

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/7119/dscf21717io.jpg

I hope these links work.

[MikShau]

Wow, It jumps 20 F on one pass through the pump? Or is it after some time? I'm guessing its the pump motor, submerged in the small volume of water that's doing the heating. You could try some experiments and put the pump outside the vase. try putting it on top of the vase and see if it will pull the water in. If not, try and set up a siphon out of the vase and into the pump.
You'll still have the issue of dumping the pump heat into your fridge, but the air will change temp quicker than the water and cause the compressor to start. It'll be like the door light was stuck on. Not very efficient, but what's a few bucks for cold beer.

As for the foam that started this. Can you eliminate the whole tap set-up and try just a cobra head with 4-5 feet of 3/16 ID tubing? If that foams, you have a different problem.

[cwelte]

Originally posted by OhAodha
[B]I think I discovered the problem. With the pump off the water temp is 40 degrees. It jumps to 60 degrees with the pump on. The pump is heating the water. The only way I am going to be able to fix this is with an in-line pump (can't find), or some way to cool the water after the tank.

I am open to any ideas.



Thanks for sharing the photos. I know it's a lot pricier than an fountian pump, but what about this: March 809 Magnetic Impeller Pump from Northern Brewer (http://www.northernbrewer.com/allgrain.html) ? You can pull the cool water from the vase inside the fridge to the pump and back again. The pump could be anywhere in the line.

[brewmonkey]

Check out sites from companies like Micromatic and Rapid for some ideas on how they are setting it up. I would also say that you need to get rid of just the water and go back to some type of a glycol/antifreeze setup.

Water will cool but it will not get the line anywhere near what you need it to be to keep your beer from foaming as well it will most likely warm up the beer rather then cool it down, as you seem to be experiencing.

The real problem here is that in order to cool the line properly and efficiently you are looking at some serious change. Glycol is obviously the better way to go but then you are looking at even more money. Using a simple pump is not really going to work as you need to have a set up that will not only pump the liquid but cool it back down prior to recirculation. Otherwise you find yourself in the same situation you have now, the pump sends out the water which does cool the beer but as it cools it draws the excess heat from the line AND the pump which in turn brings the temp of the reservoir up. You need to have a heat exchanger in there somewhere as well as a condenser to cool the outbound liquid other wise you are just throwing money at a problem you will most likely never solve IMHO.

Flash coolers are also another way to go but you are talking in the low thousand dollar range for a used unit.

The other method I would suggets is Cold Forced Air.

[OhAodha]

I will go back to glycol now that I know what the cause of the problem is. As you can see from the pictures, forced air will not work as the tolerances arew too tight and there are too many bends.

I found an in-line pump for about $60. http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=PON-02527
I think this will work and will remove the heating pump in the water. I agree, however, that I need to cool the inbound water/glycol. I am thinking of adding some flexible copper to the system and winding it around my CO2 tank and using the metal of that to cool the water. Slightly warming the CO2 should not affect the line pressure. Let me know if you see any problems with this.

So, if I spend all the money figuring out a system that works how many beers are you all going to send me in payment when you put it in?:D

[brewmonkey]

Well for me that would be none as I have a complete set up already to run 6 beers as well as the tap tower that allows for installation of the glycol straight to the faucet head. It allows for the beer to come from the faucet at the dead on balls accurate temp you have set.

[OhAodha]

Brewmonkey,
Are you using Glycol, and if you are what pump do you use? Is yours a home system or a bar system? How about some photos of your setup. It might help point the rest of us in the right direction.

Thanks

[Scarab]

I have been working on my glycol long draw (15 feet) system for a couple of weeks now and have figured out my foam problem. I was using a thermostat to control the air temperature inside a chest freezer with a 15 gallon drum full of glycol solution...problem was the air temperature wasn't cold enough to keep the glycol at the desired temperature. seems the air must be much colder than 30 degrees to keep the glycol at 30 degrees in a circulating system. The system must absorb alot of heat on the round trip through the pump, trunk line and tower. After being set at 30 degrees for over a week, the glycol drum was only down to 45 degrees. I just broke down and purchased a couple of digital "instant read" thermometers ($9.99) at Target and they are worth their weight in gold. I now have the probe for the thermostat in the glycol itself rather than hanging in the air and my freezer ran all night long last night and the glycol solution is now cold. Result....condensation on the draft tower for the first time and my first foam free pour since beginning this project....moral of the story..You can't keep your beer in the same fridge as your glycol solution (or water). Either your beer will be too cold or your glycol will be too warm. Maybe you could dump ice into your glycol container before you plan on having a few...sounds like a pain.
Carl:(