Beer Snobs

[revans618]

Is anyone else out there who is a beer snob like I am?

My definition of a beer snob is someone who won't even touch a macro brew. I started out drinking Stroh's and Rolling Rock with an occasional Busch or Miller Lite. After being stationed in Germany for 2 years and drinking good Pils and Dark Lagers(hefe weizen is not my thing) I can't stand the macros anymore. Is this wrong? I'll drink pop at restaurants if they don't have at least a Sam Adams. Now with getting in to homebrewing I don't think I'll ever drink a macro brew again.

[Dextolen]

I'm not going to insult anyone or waste a waiter's time, but I rarely have a macro anymore. I think a good way to channel our snobbery is to help others break free from macro beer. This can be very difficult. My dad is still a Coors light drinker after many attempts by me to find something that he'd enjoy.

It comes down to the misuderstanding of hops/bitterness, color and esters/phenols found in micro/import ales.

[Sladek]

Well, then call me a beer snob. I call myself a "beer nerd". I prefer to think of myself as having "standards", like I don't drink Folgers even if it's offered to me. I will say something to the waiter if it's something I think is nonsensical, like a frosted glass or no head on the beer (god I F@#KING HATE THAT). I usually say, "why do you do that?" or something.

If the only thing available is a bland international light lager, then I don't drink.

It comes down to the misuderstanding of hops/bitterness, color and esters/phenols found in micro/import ales.
I'll come off as snobbish, but people need to get over it: and a lack of refined taste. Really; it took me several years to appreciate and finally LIKE craft-brewed beer. Because most things we eat/drink in our culture are so bland, I wasn't used to such relatively complex flavors. And then to really taste differences between styles, I mean really recognize them, and then differences between beers of the same style, that took a long time and a lot of drinking. I've noticed that people really like the same thing every time; sure, I fall back on the same types of beers (typeS), but I'll try anything.

My dad is the same way: I'll get him to try something, then he'll reach for his skunky green bottle of (gulp) St. Pauli Girl (and he agrees that Swiller/ButWhySir/Poors are piss...)....fuhgedabahdit.

To answer the OP's question in a roundabout way, you're in the right place, my friend. Welcome aboard.

[chazwicke]

I'm a beer geek. I like decent beer and won't touch most macros. Although I would if they started making beers of merit. I want my beers served proper temperature and in a glass. That being said, I think people should drink what they like. If the BMC they drink makes them happy then great for them. If they want to drink it from the can or bottle then I let them. I like to suggest good beer to people whom I know that might be willing to try and I have converted many over the years. But most of the time these days I just live and let live.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Sladek

To answer the OPs question in a roundabout way, you're in the right place, my friend. Welcome aboard.

exactly

Sladek, I actually prefer the term "beer geek"

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by revans618
Is anyone else out there who is a beer snob like I am?

My definition of a beer snob is someone who won't even touch a macro brew.

That's me. If there's only BMC (or crap micro; micros can make crap beer too) I'll do without (sometimes I might have whisk(e)y. I agree with dextolen above, there's no reason to be rude about it.

[HarkJohnny]

oooh! oooh! me! me!! me!!!

{hand raised high like that geek kid in the front who always got way too excited about geometry}

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
That's me. If there's only BMC (or crap micro; micros can make crap beer too) I'll do without (sometimes I might have whisk(e)y. I agree with dextolen above, there's no reason to be rude about it.


mmmm, whisk(e)y

BTW - I really like your spelling with the parathesis - I'll use that more often

[S.F.B.]

Absolutely, yes! I am a beer geek/nerd/snob. I won't go so far as to be insulting to someone who prefers a macro, I just refuse to drink something because it's there. Make mine a water if there is no good beer.

[corkybstewart]

I had a slightly different take on the thread title. I recently shared a few homebrews with a new aquaintance, some of his, some of mine. He wanted to analyze each beer in terms of phenols, yeast selection, OG and such. That's all fine, but I just wanted to enjoy some homebrews. I personally have 1 analysis when I try a new beer: Do I like it or not?
As far as drinking macros, I try to avoid them, sometimes it's not feasible. My friends all know not to offer me one, but there are situations where I'll drink one. As for converting others, I ask them: Do you drink Coors light because its good beer or because you can drink 30 of them in a day. If it''s "good beer" I recommend they not waste my homebrew. I put too much work into my beer to have someone take one sip and pour the rest on the ground.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Sladek
I will say something to the waiter if it's something I think is nonsensical, like a frosted glass or no head on the beer (god I F@#KING HATE THAT). I usually say, "why do you do that?" or something.....I'll come off as snobbish, but people need to get over it...

Why should anyone have to get over snobbish behavior? The waiter didn't pour your beer. The bartender did. Take it up with him/her - nicely. Two minutes of courtesy can go a long way - might even teach an open-minded bartender something or two. There is no place for rudeness from the server's/bartender's side - their livelihood depends on it. Nor should there be from the other side of the table/bar.

Aside from known beer bars, I've begun to ask for a non-frosted glass, no fruit with my Wit/Hefe, etc. Most people would never order "a steak" and leave it at that. Getting specific = getting what you want.

I used to leave restaurants/bars where the selection or beer care was lacking without making a peep. Why? These places don't know any better and won't improve if nothing is said. Suggestions/requests at any place worth frequenting are usually taken into consideration. You may not get everything you ask for, but if you ask for nothing, you're sure to get it.

I don't consider myself a beer snob/geek/nerd/etc. I'm a beer lover and I will occasionally reach for a macro (High Life, Stroh's, Rolling Rock, Narragansett).

Cheers!

[zoom6zoom]

I don't consider myself a beer snob/geek/nerd/etc. I'm a beer lover

I'd have to second that. I just have high standards, and I've rarely met a macro that would meet them. If anything I will continue to raise my standards, but they will never lower.

[hops99]

Most people would never order "a steak" and leave it at that. Getting specific = getting what you want.

Good point. I frequent a local Mexican Restaurant every few weeks, and every time I used to order a Negra Modelo (the best beer they have, imagine that) I'd get it in a frosted glass with a lime. It took a few tries, but they finally started serving me in a plain glass, sans lime.

I bristle at the term "beer snob" though. Or "wine snob", or "potato chip" snob, or "Italian Restaurant" snob, etc. etc.
Just because I/we prefer quality products makes me/us snobs? No - I think it makes us INTELLIGENT, ERUDITE, and BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.

OK, I guess I am a snob....

[fire2fire]

i am new to this home brewing but i already see my self becoming a beer snob. my beers that i have made already are 2-3 times better than any micro brew i've had

[Sladek]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Why should anyone have to get over snobbish behavior? The waiter didn't pour your beer. The bartender did. Take it up with him/her - nicely.
You've rearranged my post and taken the "get over it" bit out of context. I was responding to "lack of understanding" of finer beer's tastes and said, frankly, that it's a lack of refined taste, and if that sounds snobbish, so be it; in other words, people should get used to the fact that there are more complex tastes out there, and it doesn't have to be "snobbish".

I don't know where I said to act snobbish to the waiter, but I certainly didn't intend to. If I do say something, I try to be disarming about it, or, if the waiter is busy, I'll just ask for something else. I've gotten beer with no head (something I'm not used to, having been out of the country for a while, so it takes me off guard), but I don't say anything about it, because, as you've said, the bartender drew it. I don't feel comfortable yet saying something to a bartender about that.

At one local place I noticed that they pull the glasses out of the cooler. I asked the bartender (he knew that I had been in CZ for a while) and joked that Americans like everything cold and Europeans everything room temp. Later I learned that they chill the glasses because they come out of a hot dishwasher and at busy times don't have time to cool off.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Sladek
You've rearranged my post and taken the "get over it" bit out of context. I was responding to "lack of understanding" of finer beer's tastes and said, frankly, that it's a lack of refined taste, and if that sounds snobbish, so be it; in other words, people should get used to the fact that there are more complex tastes out there, and it doesn't have to be "snobbish".

I don't know where I said to act snobbish to the waiter, but I certainly didn't intend to.

I didn't rearrange it. I may have misunderstood or it wasn't clear. Maybe it was the colon in that second paragraph that threw it off for me. You did note talking to the waitstaff:

"I will say something to the waiter if it's something I think is nonsensical, like a frosted glass or no head on the beer (god I F@#KING HATE THAT). I usually say, "why do you do that?" or something."

Anyway, whether the post was misinterpreted or not clear, I'll stand by my advice. Ask. Be courteous. You'll get results.

Cheers!

[M.K. Jeeves]

I find my taste changed when I stopped drinking beer by the case, and started enjoying it by the pint.

[Richard English]

There is often a confusion between snobishness and discernment to my mind.

A snob is one who effects airs and graces by trying to "belong" to a class or clique by purporting to enjoy the things that "classy" people enjoy.

This would be true of beer drinkers if they drank an expensive micro instead of a cheap macro, when they actually preferred the macro, simply because the micro cost more and was more difficult to find. It is possibly true of some of those who drink the likes of Stella Artois in the UK, in preference to a fine British ale, simply because it is a more expensive drink and advertised as a prestige product.

It would be true of people who went to an opera, when they would have preferred to go to a jazz concert, simply because opera is preceived to be more "classy".

It would be true of me if the Rolls-Royce I own, and which I enjoy using for its quality and comfort, were simply parked where everyone could see it and be jealous of my perceived wealth. As it is, when I am not using it I keep it locked away in my garage. I would be a snob were I simply to park it (and not use it) and to boast to my friends about how much better it is than their own, more mundane, vehicles.

I drink fine beer because I enjoy it; I eschew Dudweiser and its many clones because I dislike them. That has nothing to do with my snobbishness and everything to do with my taste.

[surfadelic23]

I don't particularly care for the beer snobs/geeks/nerds...
But it's the Beer-DoucheBags that I really HATE:p

[Richard English]

Quote, "...But it's the Beer-DoucheBags that I really HATE..."

Please enlighten me - what are these?

[wild]

Originally posted by M.K. Jeeves
I find my taste changed when I stopped drinking beer by the case, and started enjoying it by the pint.
Agreed. As I've told many of my friends, "I don't drink more, I drink better!"

Wild

[beerboogie]

I think I just enjoy beer
Building my own six packs makes it that much better

[Sladek]

I agree, Richard, that it's about taste and discernment. Some people appreciate finer beers but aren't interested; those people usually have discerning tastes in other walks of life. Some people have modest tastes; it's in my nature to be picky as hell. I suppose when it's a value judgment that it can be considered snobbish; giving off an air of superiority or pretentiousness. I find the wine scene rather pretentiousness, but I don't really know it. I think some people see discernment as snobbishness automatically, and that's simply defensiveness. True, I may think that someone who willingly drinks ButWhySir is a dolt, just as someone who willingly buys and listens to Good Charlotte is questionable, but that's just my issue, and I have to keep it at bay.

[corkybstewart]

I keep BMC at my house for people who just are not interested in drinking better beer, and I know lots of people like that. If they want to try somee homebrew, I'll give them a sip, but I'm not going to waste a pint of good beer if they'll just pour it out. But I don't consider myself superior to them, it's just that my tastes are different. Although I've loved good beer for 30 years, 20 years of that time I drank Miller.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I keep BMC at my house for people who just are not interested in drinking better beer, and I know lots of people like that..."

But there are many people around like that and the point I have tried to make, many times, is that it is not necessarily that they prefer chemical swill but that they've never tried anything else. Indeed, in many cases they are quite unaware that there is any more difference between different kinds of beers than there is between different kinds of water.

There was an interesting article by Tom Parker Bowles (Camilla's son and Prince Charles's stepson) published here last weekend and he admitted that he "...barely knew the difference between beer and lager..."

But at the end of a lunchtime session at the White Horse he was eulogistic about fine beers and said that he was never again going to "...drink mass-produced beers or make fun of the stalwarts from Camra who strive to preserve our brewing heritage..."

The US real beer revival, like Britain's preserved brewing heritage, is under threat and all the good work done by CAMRA over the past years will be lost unless we all strive to convert the ignorami. Do you really want to go back to the the US beer scene as it was in the 1970s?.

I NEVER keep rubbish beer in my house and anyone visiting me drinks good beer or water. And you would be amazed at the numbers whom I have converted to the cause of good beer. Do as I do, when they ask for a beer get a bottle out, pour it into a glass away from their sight, and serve it without identifying it. Then watch their faces and listen to their comments.

[corkybstewart]

I'm not willing to force my guests to drink what I like or water. To me that's beer snobbery. If that works at your house, that's fine. When I have guests at my house, they are offered an alternative, but for whatever personal reason they have they are comfortable with swill, why not let everyone enjoy themselves. I don't want to turn a friendly drinking and horseshoe pitching afternoon into the equivalent of Sunday morning sermon on the evils of crappy beer.

[chazwicke]

Richard, you and I see eye to eye about this. Glad to see Tom Parker - Bowes was enlightened and awakened.

I also NEVER have BMC in my home. But most folks who know me or who would visit know about my beer obsession. I have had great fun educating my nephews who are also now geeks and my own son who is 19 appreciates good beer to and has for several years.

I say good beer or NO beer. I also stock top shelf spirits and decent wines for those who do not prefer beer.

[hops99]

I'm not willing to force my guests to drink what I like or water.

I agree. My wife and I threw a big party a few weeks ago at our place, and while we offered a huge selection of craft beer, I also made sure to have some Rolling Rock and Molson Canadian for two guys who I know love the stuff (despite repeated attempts to beervangelize them over the years). Plus, we had an even bigger stash of great wine available, some single malt scotch, soda pop, etc. etc. We covered all the bases, and everyone had a great time.

[hops99]

There was an interesting article by Tom Parker Bowles (Camilla's son and Prince Charles's stepson) published here last weekend and he admitted that he "...barely knew the difference between beer and lager..."

Heh. Isn't this the same guy who was busted for dealing cocaine at Cannes a few years ago?

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by hops99
beervangelize

That is a great term.

[corkybstewart]

I don't buy it, but when people come over they know I supply homebrew or craft beer. If they don't like those choices they bring their own, and more often than not leave some of it at my house. That's what I offer to the next guest. Chaz, you've been involved with the higher class beer scene long enough that I'ld wager most of your good friends have the same interest in beer. I have a lot of employees, my boss, neighbors who are not interested in quality beer. They wouldn't know Kriek from butt crack, but they're friends and I enjoy hanging around them for reasons besides their beer choices.

[Richard English]

Quote "...I'm not willing to force my guests to drink what I like or water. To me that's beer snobbery...."

It's not going to be possible in any situation to have everything to offer to meet every taste; you have to make a judgement about what you'll have available. Since 90% of the parties one visits will have no beer but rubbish beer, I see nothing wrong with trying to even out the balance by hosting a party that has no beer but good beer.

Why pander to the tastes of those who would seek to remove our choice (which is what the chemical-fizz people are trying to do).

I don't call it snobbery to refuse to have rubbish in my house; I don't keep supplies of Coca-Cola, potato crisps, Colonel Sawdust chicken nuggets or plastic cheese either.

Those who visit me know they will be offered a good choice of quality food and quality drink and I make no apology for maintaining my standards. Those who don't want to drink good beer will have the option of drinking good wine or good spirits - but not the option of chemical fizz.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by Richard English
It's not going to be possible in any situation to have everything to offer to meet every taste; you have to make a judgement about what you'll have available. Since 90% of the parties one visits will have no beer but rubbish beer, I see nothing wrong with trying to even out the balance by hosting a party that has no beer but good beer.

Agreed. Though I will sometimes have some Miller High Life, Narragansett, Stroh's, etc. in my fridge, I don't stock it special for anyone but myself. I bring my own beer to others' homes and they can do likewise. No offense taken.

Originally posted by Richard English

I don't call it snobbery to refuse to have rubbish in my house; I don't keep supplies of Coca-Cola, potato crisps, Colonel Sawdust chicken nuggets or plastic cheese either.


I don't take it that far. My sister drives 90 minutes (each way) to babysit my son for a couple days per week. I buy what she enjoys eating/drinking, which includes diet pepsi, frozen pizza, etc. It's the least I can do, even if I don't personally eat/buy that stuff.

Richard, any chance of using the quote function? Unless you're responding directly after the person you're quoting, it's hard to know who you are responding to, even with the quotations.

Cheers!

[denver brewhoo]

...I was with him until that part about Coca-Cola being rubbish.....

I have a soft drink about 6-7 times a year, usually as part of a hangover remedy, and those folks in Atlanta know their way around carbonated sugar water, I'm here to tell you.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by denver brewhoo
...I was with him until that part about Coca-Cola being rubbish.....
I wasn't sure how to do this quote thing - we'll see if it works!

Coca Cola is the most popular soft drink in the world; Budweiser probably the most popular beer.

Relatively few people drink quality beers or properly-made soft drinks (such as Fentiman's).

I rest my case.

[Sladek]

I don't know, Cork, why should we bend over backwards for people with no interest in good beer, when I go anywhere and they offer what they think people like, which is 9 times out of 10, horse piss? Sure, most of my old friends have discerning tastes and will usually not have swill (going to UW Madison was good for that), or will have plenty of the good stuff if they do. But, for example, my family? My sister and her husband aren't beer nerds but have good stuff. My parents are finally learning that I won't drink their St. Pauli Girl and Beck's Dark (God help me). The rest of them? Miller Lite all the way. A friend here knows I'm a big beer nerd and only has piss. Most people just offer what they like, so why shouldn't we?

"They wouldn't know Kriek from butt crack..." I love it

[hops99]

why should we bend over backwards for people with no interest in good beer, when I go anywhere and they offer what they think people like, which is 9 times out of 10, horse piss?

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but c'mon. Having a case of swill on hand for friends that you know won't touch the good stuff is bending over backwards? Sheesh.



Miller Lite all the way.

I think that might be Miller's new ad slogan!

[Sladek]

Well, for them to have something on hand just for me is bending over backwards, so how is this any different? Why can't they keep a sixer of something?

[hops99]

My older brother, who still lives in Connecticut, is a die-hard, never-change Budweiser drinker. Despite years of effort to get him to change, he is permanently stuck in his ways. So, when he comes out to Ohio every summer, I make sure to have a case of Bud waiting for him in my basement.

In return, when I head back to Connecticut to visit once or twice a year, he'll stock his fridge with Thomas Hooker, Magic Hat, and other New England micros that he can get at the local packie.

It's no big deal.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by Richard English
I wasn't sure how to do this quote thing - we'll see if it works!

Coca Cola is the most popular soft drink in the world; Budweiser probably the most popular beer.

Relatively few people drink quality beers or properly-made soft drinks (such as Fentiman's).

I rest my case.
Is Fentiman's ginger ale? I've had real ginger ale; I didn't it was possible for ginger ale to taste like that.

[Richard English]

... but c'mon. Having a case of swill on hand for friends that you know won't touch the good stuff is bending over backwards? Sheesh... [/B]
But why should we try to accommodate them? Most swill-drinkers wouldn't try to accommodate us. How many of the ordinary bars you go to have good beer? How many of your acquaintances had good beer in their cellars to cater for the tastes of the connoiseurs? How many even know what good beer is?

We are up against the unknowling and the uncaring, plus the commercial cynicism and financial clout of Dudweiser and its cronies.

When CAMRA started in the 1970s it got results by being a loud and obnoxious thorn in the side of the complacent fizz-factories who were rapidly taking over the proper brewers and trying to make us all drink Dudweiser clones. You, in the USA, are now reaping the benefit of CAMRA's pioneering work and you, like CAMRA, must make your voices heard. Otherwise you will be wiped out by the fizz factories. Your real beer revival is a precious but delicate plant that needs your tender care.

Take EVERY opportunity to promote the cause of good beer and refuse ever to buy rubbish, drink rubbish or have rubbish in your house.

[DecoJuicer]

I have to agree with Corky on this one. As a host, I try to provide something for everyone when I have a party. I have several friends that feel that homebrew or craft beers are just too "high octane" for them. They have tried my homebrew and some of the craft brews that I offer when I have a party and then they go right back to the stuff that they like to drink.

Forcing people to drink what you like by not offering any other choice is even worse than what the "chemical fizz" people do. They may spend billions on advertising, but they don't force stores and bars into contracts that say only their brand of beer can be stocked. That is worse than beer snobery..that's beer facism.

Most of my friends and family know that I like to drink good beer, and lately many of them have made an effort to go outside of what they normally drink to expand their boundaries. Not because I say, "You will not drink that in my home", but because I say, "try just half a glass."

And I make an honest effort not to ridicule people for what they drink(there is my BIL who drinks Natural Light, but he and I just like to make fun of each other about anything). Sometimes I slip, but I do try.

It all comes down to this: Does their choice of beer affect my life at all? The answer: No. So why should I get my knickers in a twist about them drinking Bud or Miller or even Milwaukee's Best Light. If they like it, then they can drink all they want. I'll still bring a corny or a 12 of my favorite craft beer to their party and offer to share with everybody else. That's just the kind of guy I am.

If you act like a snob(of any kind-beer, car, art) then the only people that will want to be around you are other snobs who think exactly like you. And let's face it, the guy that comes to your party and drinks a case of Bud Light, then strips naked and jumps in a snow bank is a lot of fun.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Sladek
Is Fentiman's ginger ale? I've had real ginger ale; I didn't it was possible for ginger ale to taste like that.

Fentiman's is real ginger BEER plus real lemonade and other soft drinks. It is made by natural methods and is carbonated by bottle-fermentation. Sadly I suspect it's not available in the USA.

You can find out more here http://www.botanically-brewed-soft-drinks.co.uk/

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
But why should we try to accommodate them? Most swill-drinkers wouldn't try to accommodate us. How many of the ordinary bars you go to have good beer? How many of your acquaintances had good beer in their cellars to cater for the tastes of the connoiseurs? How many even know what good beer is?

Often it comes down to price. If you can get a case of Bud for $15.99 at the local mega-mart, but a sixer of DFH 60 Minute IPA is $10.99 at a beer store that you have to go out of your way for, you provide for the needs of the many.

I know when I go to my BIL's house, he won't have anything decent to drink, so I always fill a cooler or grab a corny and take soemthing to share. When he comes to my house, I don't make him leave his natural light in his truck. That is ridiculous. If I did that, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the company of some very good friends.

Are you saying then that if some of my oldest and best friends refuse to drink craft beers, I shouldn't invite them to my home? Or, treat them rudely when they come and bring a supply of their own beer? I would rather go back to drinking noting but swill than to treat friends like that.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
. Chaz, you've been involved with the higher class beer scene long enough that I'ld wager most of your good friends have the same interest in beer.

You would be correct. In fact most of my good friends and associates are also beer folks. And most of my social activities and vacations are beer related. My world probably revolves more around beer stuff than anything else and has so for a great many years. (I don't know whether that is a good thing or a sad thing) So it is not really an issue. And If I'm going to someone else's place I always bring beer. Usually way more than I can drink myself as I know it will get consumed. And I usually leave what is not.
Unless it is in a Growler that I can re-fill.
I have found that 9 times out of 10 folks will pick up the beer I have brought way before the usual swill.

What I do try to do at my beach place is have 2 different styles on tap at any given time so there is more than one choice for visitors. And we do tend to have more vistors there than at home. Many of those guests prefer margueritas or mohito's. Some prefer wine.

I make no apology for only serving what I would drink myself. But I do undertand those who keep some BMC on hand for friends. I just can't bring myself to do it.

I

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer

And I make an honest effort not to ridicule people for what they drink(there is my BIL who drinks Natural Light, but he and I just like to make fun of each other about anything). Sometimes I slip, but I do try.



I have one BIL who lives in NC He drinks the worst swill -Milwaukees Best Light - because he is notoriously cheap. Not because he likes it. Guaranteed he'll be drinking all of my beer if he can and when it's gone he'll dig into the MBL. And he knows it will all still be there because no one else would touch that crap.

But his sons are a different story. They know and love craft brews.

I've got no problem if someone brings their own swill and drinks it but I will not provide it. Just as I always bring beer.

[hops99]

But why should we try to accommodate them? Most swill-drinkers wouldn't try to accommodate us.

Is it that they won't try to accommodate us, or the fact that they would, but don't know how?

Trust me, I agree with a BMC zero-tolerance policy in spirit, but sometimes I equate beer to religion and politics. You can beervangelize until you're blue in the face, but at times it just won't make any difference on an individual basis (and that doesn't have to become a social issue IMO).




You, in the USA, are now reaping the benefit of CAMRA's pioneering work and you, like CAMRA, must make your voices heard. Otherwise you will be wiped out by the fizz factories.

I'm not sure Fritz Maytag or some of the other American craft beer pioneers would point to CAMRA as their inspiration, but your general point is well taken. However, I don't subscribe to the idea that the craft beer scene in the U.S. is a house of cards and the heinous act of serving a sixer of swill to a friend or relative at a party will knock it down. Sounds like G-dub fear-mongering to me... ;)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Richard English
Fentiman's is real ginger BEER plus real lemonade and other soft drinks. It is made by natural methods and is carbonated by bottle-fermentation. Sadly I suspect it's not available in the USA.

You can find out more here http://www.botanically-brewed-soft-drinks.co.uk/

Although I'm not a regular soda drinker, we do have some amazingly good ones here in the states. Many are made by craft breweries. And there are also some real beers with Ginger in them. I think one is brewed up in Bar Harbor, Maine.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
Often it comes down to price. If you can get a case of Bud for $15.99 at the local mega-mart, but a sixer of DFH 60 Minute IPA is $10.99
As I have said many times previously, that is not an issue in the UK. Chemical fizz costs MORE than good beer. A 330 ml bottle of Dudweiser costs more than a 500 ml bottle of 1845! Incidentally, as I have also said previously, US measures like "case" and "sixer" mean little to us in the UK. Maybe you could offer a conversion in litres or some other internationally understood measure?

But still most people drink chemical fizz and the reason is actually the superb promotional job that the mega-fizz brewers do. In most of the hotels I have stayed at in the USA, chemical fizz costs the same as decent beer (usually the better hotels have maybe just one decent brew - Sierra Nevada when I was last there) But you'd better believe it - the palate-deprived masses still order Dudweiser.

The price thing is not really an issue unless you happen to be an impoverished student (who shouldn't be drinking in the USA in any case).

[hops99]

Although I'm not a regular soda drinker, we do have some amazingly good ones here in the states. Many are made by craft breweries. And there are also some real beers with Ginger in them. I think one is brewed up in Bar Harbor, Maine.

Correct. Bar Harbor makes a real beer with ginger - it's interesting, and I'll leave it at that.

Ginger beer is a different story. I'm sure Fentiman's is fine, but we have a plethora of wonderful ginger beers here in the states to choose from, which sadly are not likely to be found in the U.K.

A couple of my favorites: Reed's unfiltered extra ginger brew and Barritt's.

[Richard English]

Well, of course, Fritz Maytag did buy the ailing Anchor Steam brewery and saved it - but I suggest that his action wasn't the match that lit the US craft-beer revival. For that you need to look elsewhere.

And as for the suggestion that one action of refusal to wave the real beer flag makes no difference - I agree. So how about 2, or 22, or 222, or 2 million and 2? Your SUV doesn't make much difference to global warming - it's all the others!

CAMRA was founded just over 30 years ago by (count them) 4 men. Now what difference could the actions of just 4 men make when compared with the millions of people and billions of pounds that the big brewers had at their disposal?

Nothing at all, of course. Except that, just 30 years on, you and I are drinking fine beers due solely to the actions of those 4 men and their Campaign for Real Ale.

By the way - have you all joined yet?

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
As I have said many times previously, that is not an issue in the UK. Chemical fizz costs MORE than good beer. A 330 ml bottle of Dudweiser costs more than a 500 ml bottle of 1845! Incidentally, as I have also said previously, US measures like "case" and "sixer" mean little to us in the UK. Maybe you could offer a conversion in litres or some other internationally understood measure?

Excuse me, a case is 24 units(bottles or cans) of beer. A sixer is slang that has been bandied about on this site often enough that I thought that most people would understand. A "sixer" is six units(bottles or cans) of beer. Since this majority of people on this site are from the U.S., I use measures that are generically understood in the U.S.

To be quite honest, I have had 1845, and I didn't like it at all. I would rather have a Labatt's Blue(Canadian chemical fizz) than an 1845. But that's MY choice.

If you want to be a beer snob, that's YOUR choice, but I personally enjoy a world where different people have different tastes and different views on subjects. I also enjoy socializing with people who have different tastes and opinions. I will not ostracize a person just because they don't like "good beer."

[threecb]

Originally posted by Richard English
...US measures like "case" and "sixer" mean little to us in the UK. Maybe you could offer a conversion in litres or some other internationally understood measure?

For the most part, the beer that we'd refer to as coming in cases or sixers (six packs), is referencing packaging of 12 oz. (approx 330 ml) bottles. A sixer is, uh, six bottles. A case is 24 bottles.

We don't need any stinkin' metric system in the US!;) (I have a little story on this subject about a conversation I had with my father when I was in grade school and first learned about the metric system -- it sums up why the US may NEVER accept the metric system. But that's another can of worms that I'd like to seal before it spills into this thread.)

On Topic: I'm pretty much like chaz, I don't begrudge you bringing it, but I won't buy it. I'd prefer if they took it when they left, too. I have six-month-old Yuengling Light in my fridge that is surely passing it's prime and taking up space. I usually pick up some stepping stone craft beer when I have a gathering and make recommendations. If they want to try it, cool. If not, their Coronas (yuck!) will surely keep them happy.

[stronk]

I'm not going to wade in on the main conversation going on here (although I'd be on Richard and Chaz's side of the debate, personally), but I have a query about brewing real sodas.
Fentiman's is real ginger BEER plus real lemonade and other soft drinks. It is made by natural methods and is carbonated by bottle-fermentation.
Richard, do you know how they do this? The drinks are sweet, so I'd expect the residual sugar to be fermented by the yeast to produce either bottle bombs or overwhelming carbonation (I've actually had it happen trying to brew my own ginger beer by an old recipe book).

[corkybstewart]

My boss always buys Guiness or something similar to that when we go to his house, I return the favor. Nobody else who goes to his house will touch the Guiness, its strictly for me becasue he knows I don't drink Bud. He always buys very good wine for my wife also.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
. I will not ostracize a person just because they don't like "good beer."

I'd like to ostracize my cheap BIL ;)

[hops99]

Except that, just 30 years on, you and I are drinking fine beers due solely to the actions of those 4 men and their Campaign for Real Ale.

Solely? I applaud the efforts (and subsequent influence) of CAMRA through the years as much as the next guy, but I fear that when one starts to speak in absolutes, a touch of myopia may have settled in.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by hops99

Ginger beer is a different story. I'm sure Fentiman's is fine, but we have a plethora of wonderful ginger beers here in the states to choose from, which sadly are not likely to be found in the U.K.

A couple of my favorites: Reed's unfiltered extra ginger brew and Barritt's.
I've not checked their availability, I confess, but I have checked Barritt's and theirs is not made in quite the same way as Fentimen's. According to their website "...The essences from this fermentation are blended with other natural ingredients which are then added to purified, filtered, sparkling water to become the standard of ginger beers around the world...."

In other words, although the flavour is extracted by fermentation, the brew is not bottle-fermented, as is Fentimens'

Reed's don't say how their Ginger Beer is carbonated but do mention "sparkling water" as a component of their "Reed's Cherry Ginger Brew ". Sparkling water suggests artifically carbonated water to me.

They might well be fine brews but I don't think they are bottle-fermented which is one of Fentimen's great benefits. As is the case with a BCA it makes for a depth and complexity of flavour that other processes do not offer.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by stronk
I'm not going to wade in on the main conversation going on here (although I'd be on Richard and Chaz's side of the debate, personally), but I have a query about brewing real sodas.

Richard, do you know how they do this? The drinks are sweet, so I'd expect the residual sugar to be fermented by the yeast to produce either bottle bombs or overwhelming carbonation

I don't know all the details although their website is informative. One way would be for them to use a lactose/sucrose mix. The sucrose would ferment and carbonate the brew but the lactose would not and its sweetness would remain (that's the way that Mackeson Stout is sweetened).

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
[B]Nothing at all, of course. Except that, just 30 years on, you and I are drinking fine beers due solely to the actions of those 4 men and their Campaign for Real Ale.B]

Come on, do you honestly believe that if it weren't for those 4 men 30 years ago, we would all be drinking BMC or like products? That is ridiculous. That is like saying that if weren't for the food network on tv, that we would all be eating tastless, processed food.

I don't doubt that those 4 guys HELPED to promote good beers, but I seriously doubt that if it weren't for them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

There have always been pockets of society where people wanted something different. Whether it is beer, whiskey, television programming, clothing, etc., there is always a small group that is not satisfied with the status quo and they demand something better.

I can see making a statement like "Due to those 4 men and others like them..." But to make a blanket statement that CAMRA is responsible for everyone world wide being able to drink craft beers is going to far. I understand that you are proud of the organization that you belong to, but give the rest of the world some credit too.

If it were just 4 guys that liked better beer, they would have been told by the MARKET to sit down, shut up, and drink what is available. The ale that you like to reference most, Fuller's, has been around since 1845. That is a lot longer than 30 years. Are you trying so imply that if it weren't for CAMRA, they would have gone out of business?

Sorry, I'm not buying what you're selling.

As far as, waving the real beer flag, I agree with hops99. You can shout and yell and wave your arms all you like, but there are always going to be people that just don't want a craft beer. Saying "good beer" is not fair anyway. I'm sure that you and I have widely varying opinions on just what "good" means. Hell, I know guys that would rather have a hot dog then a Filet Mignon. If I threw a bbq and I knew in advance that a friend didn't like steak or ribs, I would be glad to get him a package of hot dogs. That's what friends do. They don't say, "Either you eat steak or you get a slice of bread."

In the U.S., there is a large price difference between craft beers and macros. I can get a case(24 units) of 355 ML bottles for $13.99 on sale, so what harm is done by offering guests what they enjoy?

Again, their beer choice doesn't affect the way I live my life. I will continue to drink craft beers because I enjoy them, not because I feel superior to others when I drink them.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by threecb
For the most part, the beer that we'd refer to as coming in cases or sixers (six packs), is referencing packaging of 12 oz. (approx 330 ml) bottles. A sixer is, uh, six bottles. A case is 24 bottles.

We don't need any stinkin' metric system in the US!;

We don't use metric measures for our beer in the UK either. However, metric measures are a universally understood standard whereas US measures are not. Even your pints and ounces are different from ours.

There is enough confusion in the world today without adding to it by your using measures that 85% of the world's population do not understand or by my using measures that around 95% do not understand. Which is why I try always to give US and/or metric equivalents when I am posting about quantities.

Although I doubt it will happen in my lifetime, the metric system will eventually prevail, if only because all major countries' governments (including the USA's) have officially adopted it, notwithstanding the popular pressure to keep with the established measures. Give it a couple of generations and it'll only be the old fogies who even remember the old ways.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I'd like to ostracize my cheap BIL ;)

My BIL is notoriusly cheap too(I always joke that he still has his first communion money), but I will say that he will drink his Natty Light first, and then if he runs out(which is rare since he buys it in 30 packs) he will drink whatever I have on hand, usually Labatt's Blue that I keep on hand for guests.

[stronk]

I'll pre-empt Richard a little here (unless he's already posted whilst I've been reading). The reason he says that CAMRA saved good beer is that when they were founded, the trend was still rapidly moving towards a situation with no real ale and all beer in the UK/US brewed by a small number of mega-breweries. 'Beer' was becoming one taste, rather than many. It is a matter of opinion, but it is possible that when the scourge of brewing culture bottomed out and society started demanding gourmet/luxury drinks again, the fact that beer could be interesting may just have been forgotten by the public. No public demand, no profitable move into microbreweries in the UK or the US, no modern beer scene.
I don't take quite as polarised a view as I have described, but don't deny that it is a possibility.

And I agree that CAMRA has become a bit too single-minded in its views and is in danger of losing influence (look at how little notice Fullers took of CAMRA when they closed the Gales brewery recently).

[Richard English]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer [/i]
Come on, do you honestly believe that if it weren't for those 4 men 30 years ago, we would all be drinking BMC or like products? ... YES

...The ale that you like to reference most, Fuller's, has been around since 1845. That is a lot longer than 30 years. Are you trying so imply that if it weren't for CAMRA, they would have gone out of business? [/B]... YES

Remember, I was there. Before CAMRA, breweries were closing weekly or being taken over - which amounted to the same thing. Both Young's and Fuller's were thinking of switching to fizz beer as an alternative to being taken over. Very few pubs had cask-conditoned beer and most were ripping out their beer engines and putting in fizz-fonts.

In the USA the only brewery still making beer was Anchor Steam and that was on the point of closure.

Before CAMRA there were just 4 bottle-condtioned beers still brewed in the UK; now there are over 600. Since CAMRA dozens of new breweries have sprung up and the choice of beer is batter than it has been for 60 years.

Those who were not there to see the difference that CAMRA made just don't realise the truth of the matter. Don't take my word for it - check the facts - they are readily available.

[hops99]

They might well be fine brews but I don't think they are bottle-fermented which is one of Fentimen's great benefits.

True enough, Barritt's is not bottle-fermented, but it is still a nice ginger brew.

Reed's extra ginger, on the other hand, is a stellar drink to seek out; 55 grams of fresh ginger in every bottle! Reed's markets itself as "Jamaican style", and as such they add a touch of pineapple juice to the brew. Maybe non-traditional, but outstanding nonetheless.

Try the Fentiman's shandy lately?

[Richard English]

I have asked Barritt's for the address of a UK distributor and will let you know it it's available here.

[hops99]

In the USA the only brewery still making beer was Anchor Steam and that was on the point of closure.

Not true. Other U.S. breweries were making porters and other ales at the time; Lion (Stegmaier) and Yuengling to name a few.


Those who were not there to see the difference that CAMRA made just don't realise the truth of the matter. Don't take my word for it - check the facts - they are readily available.

Sure, but to insinuate that the U.S. owes its beer revival "solely" (as you put it) to CAMRA is asinine. From what I've read, just as many, if not more, craft beer pioneers in the U.S. were influenced by the German beer culture as well as England's. Not to mention the fact that the great U.S. wine revival started to hit its stride in the mid-60's, culminating with the famous Spurrier tasting in Paris in 1976. That also served as a parallel benchmark for aspiring craft brewers.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by hops99 Not true. Other U.S. breweries were making porters and other ales at the time; Lion (Stegmaier) and Yuengling to name a few.

I confess I wasn't aware of them - I certainly was unable to get any information about them when I first visited the USA in 1976. Anchor Steam was the only drinkable beer I found and I had to go to SFO to find it.

Sure, but to insinuate that the U.S. owes its beer revival "solely" (as you put it) to CAMRA is asinine. From what I've read, just as many, if not more, craft beer pioneers in the U.S. were influenced by the German beer culture as well as England's.

Once the revival started, of course - but I am talking about the match that lit the fire - and who struck that?

[chazwicke]

In my view, the first "True" US micro was New Albion founded in late 70s by Jack McAuliffe who, while in the military and stationed in Scotland, grew to love ales. He settled in Sonoma and started brewing. He failed but out of his brewery, like a pheonix, rose the Mendicino Brewing Company, which is still with us. On the East Coast I remember three very early breweries. Newmans, Chesbay and Weeping Radish. I'm a fan of Anchors beers but Fritz Maytag is a bit of a curmudgeon.

I drank beer from all of the above breweries. And I also regularly drank Yuengling Porter back in the 1970s because it did have flavor which was not the case with most other brewers. Even some of the smaller regionals. I also remember Steg. Lion made mainly contract beers for supermarket chains back then. Genessee had the 12 horse which was a bit better than most American swill of the time.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
[B]Remember, I was there. Before CAMRA, breweries were closing weekly or being taken over - which amounted to the same thing. Both Young's and Fuller's were thinking of switching to fizz beer as an alternative to being taken over. [B]

That arguement doesn't work for my dad whenwe argue politics, and it doesn't wash here either.

People who "were there" often have a completely incorrect vision of what actually did happen. In law enforcement, the worse witness in the world is an eye witness. Often times, what they think they saw and what actually happened are 2 disctinctly different things.

In 1976 the U.S., and most other industrialized nations were in a recession. Since a.)John Q. Public working at a mill was in fear of loosing his job, he wasn't spending any money on craft beer and b.) Bud and its ilk are much cheaper to produce, it is only reasonable to assume that the reason most micro breweries were going out of business or changing their recipe is because the demand just wasn't there. People aren't going to buy an expensive beer, or beer at all, if it means that their kids don't get to eat.

Fast forward 5-10 years. The economy was MUCH better. There was a whole lot of disposable income flying around. People were able to once again have luxury items like beer(and yes, beer is a luxury item Chaz;) )

You might as well give Ronald Reagan credit for the beer revival(I'm just trying to make a point. I would never actually give credit to RR for the beer revival)

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
People were able to once again have luxury items like beer(and yes, beer is a luxury item Chaz )



Do I have to pay a luxury tax on it?



:eek:


Good beer should be a staple. A beer in every glass.

[stronk]

(sorry for wading in when I specifically said I wouldn't)

I feel I should repost my last post at this point. I tried to preempt your point about economics, Deco. My point is that if good beer had died out altogether, the public would have forgotten it was something to luxuriate in. Look how late the gourmet coffee revolution is arriving on the scene. People have always drunk coffee and there have always been all of these coffee varieties. The public just didn't notice that there are more dimensions to coffee until very recently, despite the earlier upsurge in popularity (and hence variety) of other luxury goods.
Not an absolute parallel, I'll admit, but you see what I'm trying to say.

And about eyewitness testimony: at the moment, Richard's version is the UK brewing industry's orthodox view of its recent history. That's not to say it is exactly right (what historical record is?), but that it's the most widely accepted version.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
That arguement doesn't work for my dad whenwe argue politics, and it doesn't wash here either.

People who "were there" often have a completely incorrect vision of what actually did happen. In law enforcement, the worse witness in the world is an eye witness. Often times, what they think they saw and what actually happened are 2 disctinctly different things.

In 1976 the U.S., and most other industrialized nations were in a recession. Since a.)John Q. Public working at a mill was in fear of loosing his job, he wasn't spending any money on craft beer and b.) Bud and its ilk are much cheaper to produce, it is only reasonable to assume that the reason most micro breweries were going out of business or changing their recipe is because the demand just wasn't there. People aren't going to buy an expensive beer, or beer at all, if it means that their kids don't get to eat.

Fast forward 5-10 years. The economy was MUCH better. There was a whole lot of disposable income flying around. People were able to once again have luxury items like beer(and yes, beer is a luxury item Chaz;) )

You might as well give Ronald Reagan credit for the beer revival(I'm just trying to make a point. I would never actually give credit to RR for the beer revival)

I am sorry, but just about everything you say is wrong. In 1976 Dudweiser and its clones had already monopolised US beer production for many years. People didn't spend money on craft beer, not because they couldn't afford it but because there was no craft beer. The craft beer revival in the USA followed the beer revival in the UK. I only mention 1976 because that was when I first experienced at firsthand the horrors of American beers - but I'd known about them for much longer than that. The recession you mention has about as much to do with people's beer habits as does the green cheese in the moon.

You can choose to doubt my own reliablility as a witness if you wish - but the facts are there for all to see and I quoted some of them earlier. And I wasn't just an eye witness - I was involved. I started drinking beer around 50 years ago and saw the fizz revolution start at first hand - Flowers Keg Bitter being the first of the UK fizz beers. I saw the real beers that I loved being withdrawn and the sea of fizz beers arriving - and I tried them all. And they didn't take over from real beers because they were cheap (they actually cost more) they took over because they were highly profitable for the brewers and easy for the publicans to handle. Thus they were very heavily promoted with clever advertising - and they were winning hands down.

I saw CAMRA start and I read the newspaper articles and the scathing comments from Watneys, Ind Coope and Whitbread et al - who dismissed CAMRA as an organisation of cranks. Ten years on CAMRA was being hailed as the world's most successful consumer organisation; Watneys and most of the other mega-brewers has started to produce good beer again and all the pubs began to put back their beer engines.

The beer scene you now see in the UK dates from the 1980s, not, as many believe, from Victorian times. In the 1970s we nearly lost our fine brewing heritage and many of the pubs you now see were then being converted into bars and restaurants, as happened in the USA half a century before. And it was thanks to CAMRA that we saved our drinking heritage in the nick of time. And if you don't choose to believe what I say then you have that right. But the facts of history can be checked up on - make a start by looking at the CAMRA site and reading some of the books published in the 1970s about the death of the English pub.

Dudweiser clones are made not because they are cheaper to produce and thus can be sold for less, but because they are stable and highly profitable. The price of a product is part of its marketing mix and has little if anything to do with production costs. In the USA craft beers are sold a luxury items and Dudweiser as a cheap product; in the UK the pricing is the opposite way around. One thing that Dudweiser does know about is marketing and they have position their rubbish as a premium product in the UK and as staple in the USA. They obviously feel that's the best way for them to market effectively and, considering that bottled Dudweiser is the most popular bottled beer in both the UK and the USA I reckon they've got their marketing about right.

And I stick to my guns - Dudweiser and the other megas are very rich and very powerful. They will snatch back the ground you have so dearly won in a trice if you let your guard relax.

[corkybstewart]

That's all fine, but if my friends want to drink Spudweiser at my house, and they supply it, that's perfectly acceptable with me. I can't be responsible for their tastes, just mine. As I stated before, they bring it they leave it and there it sits until the next time they come over. If it takes up needed space in my beer fridge, no problem. I take it out and leave it on a shelf in the garage until they come back. They don't even notice how bad it tastes after a month on my shelf at 90F. I'm supposed to educate these people?

[Erin W]

I love this thread. In so many ways I love this thread!

As a bartender, it behooves me to know your tastes, or you're not going to stick around. That is rule number 1.

As someone reminded earlier, a really good regular or friend who, maybe in a perfect world might be a genius, uses cases of a mass marketed swillable product as a coping mechanism, then I'll keep some around 'cause the place wouldn't be the same without 'em.

However, if I'll sense someone wants something different than the mass stuff, I'll suggest something based on a series of "what do you like" questions,
(Mostly this happens when I'm off drinking at another establishment) and what I know to be available; usually suggestions are met with enthusiasm.....or I've bored them with such an enlightening array of options, that they are just plain thirsty...

Point being: you can lead a horse to good beer with a rope...

If you were all sitting at my bar today, I would raise a big toast to those just being who they are. (Corky, I'll graciously sample the ENTIRE specimen, Richard anything from your chiller/ non-chiller would be most excellent, the boss that buys Guiness, remember THAT, it might mean a raise, keep a 24pk of something crappy at home--karma works in mysterious ways, conversion rarely happens overnight so keep Rule # 1 in mind. In fact I'm having a delicious beer with you all as we live and breathe...

Also, someone said that since they've been buying beer by the liter vs. the case and it's been a different...well..:rolleyes:

Anyway, I couldn't agree more. I like getting the 5% discount for mixing a case! What a cheap thrill! And it lasts for a couple or three weeks. BTW, Bar Harbor's Blueberry is quite tasty indeed!
O'Fallons chocolate cherry is still my new fave.



I applaud those of you with good taste. To me, good taste is universal.
I toast those of you who are patient with the process of enlightenment, whether it pertains to beer or not.


Keep your head high...Prost!

[Richard English]

I have just had a reply from Barritt's who tell me they do not "yet" distribute in the UK. So I guess it'll have to be Fentiman's when I want a decent soft drink.

It's maybe not surprising, but it's sad, that the best US and UK soft drinks, like the best beers, are so tricky to find.

You want Dudweiser or Coca Cola in the UK - you got it - everywhere you go!

You want Newcastle Brown or John Smith's in the USA - no problem.

But if you want Fuller's 1845 or Goldminer or Fentiman's in the USA, or Sierra Nevada, Dogfish Head or Barritt's in the UK - you have a real search on your hand.

Which is why I take every every opportunity to promote the products of the independant quality producers and why I would gladly have bought some Barritt's were it available.

If we don't use the products of the minority producers, and persuade others to do the same, then the small producers will die. Why do you think Gales sold out to Fullers? Because they weren't selling enough beer to make the money needed to refurbish their Horndean brewery, that's why. Because the folks in Hampshire were all drinking Dudweiser, not Gales, that's why. Because nobody cared that their friends and drinking companions were drinking Dudweiser, that's why. Because the Gales drinkers all used to say, "What does it matter what others drink, just as long as I can get my Gales".

Well now they know why they should have made a fuss about it when their friends asked for a can of Dudweiser instead of a pint of Gales HSB. Sadly it's now too late.

[hops99]

In other words, although the flavour is extracted by fermentation, the brew is not bottle-fermented, as is Fentimens'

Are you sure about this? I did some research last night on Fentiman's (to see if it's available anywhere here in the U.S.), and I see that the ingredient list contains carbonated water.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by hops99
Are you sure about this? I did some research last night on Fentiman's (to see if it's available anywhere here in the U.S.), and I see that the ingredient list contains carbonated water.

Fentiman's is certainly bottle-fermented as can be seen by the yeast sediment and the fact that is contains a small amount of alcohol.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
If we don't use the products of the minority producers, and persuade others to do the same, then the small producers will die. Why do you think Gales sold out to Fullers? Because they weren't selling enough beer to make the money needed to refurbish their Horndean brewery, that's why. Because the folks in Hampshire were all drinking Dudweiser, not Gales, that's why. Because nobody cared that their friends and drinking companions were drinking Dudweiser, that's why. Because the Gales drinkers all used to say, "What does it matter what others drink, just as long as I can get my Gales".

That's called a Free Market Economy. If Gales had offered a better product that appealled to more people, then they would still be in business. Brow beating people or forcing them to drink what YOU want them to drink will have the exact opposite effect that you want.

By acting like a beer snob, you are doing more of a disservice than if you were to just say, "Here, try this. You may like it." If I went to a persons house and they told me that whatever I liked to drink wasn't welcome in their house, then they told me that I would drink what they offered or I'll drink water, I would be on my way home before they finished the sentence. I don't care who they are.

Likewise, if I was sitting at a pub and some know-it-all kept telling me why he was so much better than me because of his beer choice, I wouldn't sit there very long, and I would not be going to that pub again, and the bartender would know exactly why. Truth be told, I would be hard pressed not to knock him off of his barstool if he didn't leave me alone.

As far as the price of making beer goes, you can not honestly expect me to believe that it costs less to make a fine beer than it does to make a BMC product. I can make a 5 gallon batch BMC clone from extract here for less than $15. It costs me almost double that to make any other beer of quality. And I don't buy in near the quantity that BMC does. Why do you think that they use corn, rice, and other adjuncts in their beer? Because they save money by using those products.

If the price of Bud is the same price as "good beer" in your area, that is because THAT IS WHAT THE MARKET IS WILLING TO PAY!! If the choice of "good beer" is so great in your area, and the price is the same, then Bud should be practically out of business. But they aren't. BMC obviously makes a product that appeals to a lot of people.

Let me say this again. I personally don't drink the stuff. I do like beer with more flavor, but I will not begrudge anybody who does drink it and LIKES it. If they want to go to a cookie cutter bar and drink Bud, then that is their choice. If they want to sit next to me at a local brew pub, then I will welcome them. If they come to my home, I will try to accomodate them. I they bring their own, I won't tell them that I won't have that swill in my house. They showed up with a six pack, not a 13 year old Thai prostitute and an ounce of cocaine hydrochloride.

I will, however, continue to OFFER them something good from my selection. Whether it is a half glass of whatever homebrew I happen to have on tap or a bottle of Rogue's Sharktooth Ale(I will usually offer to split a bottle with them so that it doesn't get wasted if they don't like it). What I won't do is belittle them or make them feel uncomfortable about their beverage of choice, even if it is Bud, Pepsi, Merlot, or even (gasp) a daiquiri.

I won't be a beer snob or a beer facist. And I won't trade barbs with you about my stance on the subject. If you want to make your snide little comments in your own pretentious way, be my guest.

As far as CAMRA goes, you will NEVER convince me that 4 guys were responsible for the beer market that is available today. As has already been said, there were still micro breweries producing really good product in this country even though BMC was eating up most of the market. Even if the beer wasn't to your obviously exacting standards, it had a following here in the states that kept it alive through the recession, without the aid of CAMRA. Just as I'm sure that there were many fine beers in the U.K. that would have made it out of the recession alive. Fullers and Youngs would have changed their recipe in a minute if they thought that they could compete with Bud. They obviously felt that they still had a niche, and that they would exploit it for all that it was worth. They are in business to make money. That is the bottom line.

The recession you mention has about as much to do with people's beer habits as does the green cheese in the moon.

Come on Richard, you think that people would pay for ANY beer, if they were already worried about keeping their homes. If BMC was the same price as Fullers, then people would either drink the cheapest local stuff they could buy or they would leave beer completely off of their shopping list. If you are barely making a house payment, then you don't regulary buy beer. I can personally attest to that. In the U.S., we had all sorts of cheap, garbage beer that didn't survive the 80's. When people could start to afford buying good beer again, they did. Then a lot of these crap beers went away. BMC had a solid market stance because they were so large.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler also dominated the market for years, but there have always been people who buy BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, or even Rolls-Royce. Does that mean that Ford, GM, and Chrysler want those other companies to close there doors forever? HELL YES!! That is what business is about. Pushing your product to the top of the market and getting rid of any competition that gets in your way.

If any of the U.S. or U.K. breweries could put any of the BMC breweries, or any of the other craft brewers for that matter, out of business, they would do so in a minute. But let's face it, we are the BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborgini, and even Rolls-Royce drivers of the beer world.

And while I am using the car analogy, I only drive Ford products, but if a friend pulled up in a Pontiac, I wouldn't make him park down the street, or take a taxi cab to my house.

As a group, we enjoy a more flavorful beer, even if it we do have to go that extra mile for it.

I won't compromise my tastes, but I also won't try to force people to compromise theirs.

[fretlessman71]

Could Gales have simply done a better job of advertising their product? I haven't seen much discussion on that. Did the old English breweries simply rely on word of mouth before? If that's the case, and they refused to change with the times, then they have little other than themselves to blame. Still a crying shame that they're gone.

[corkybstewart]

Rock on Deco. If CAMRA saved the beer world, why is there virtually no cask ale available in 99% of the US. Its simply because there is not now, nor has there ever been, a market for real English cask ales in the US. But there are craft breweries that have been around for decades and have had local followings. These are the origins of craft beer in America, though obviously not for England. I'm reading Farmhouse ALes and there is agreeemnet with Richard that the wave of cheap lagers nearly wiped out the craft beer scene in France and Belgium. But it was European lagers that did that. Bud and Miller are relative newcomers to the European beer environment. I've been vacationing in Europe regularly for 25 years now. I've tasted bland, cookie cutter local lagers in Spain, France, England, Italy, and of course Germany, Switzerland and Austria. But anywhere I travelledI could always, through a combo of pure ignorance and blind luck(my guiding principles in life), come across truly great local beers.
I understand your sincerity and passion for great beer Richard. But there will always be a market for lower quality(not cheap), and there will always be a market for higher quality beers, and there will always be overlap between the 2. The way I look at it is that if they all started drinking craft beer there would not be enough to go around. Eventually the market would correct itself, but once again it would seek the lowest common denominator, blandness.

[chazwicke]

Gales made some great beers.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Its simply because there is not now, nor has there ever been, a market for real English cask ales in the US.

Not to nitpick, but there would've been a time where all the beer here was "cask". Maybe not all English BItters, but naturally carbonated in the serving container style beer. I've been trying to narrow down the time when the big switch happened but haven't had any luck. I saw a picture of a bar from Texas in the 1930s that still had handpumps.

I would further though that the current market here for cask, in it's many guises, may be very, very small, it does exist. I'm seeing more and more handpumps, the real kind, at brewpubs and the like. Again I'll grant you that even compared to the diminutive size of the craft beer market here the cask segment is tiny, it's there. I'm part of it. If, as actually happened, I could get a cask of Real Ale for a party at under a week's notice things have changed a bit.

As far as preaching to the masses, even Michael Jackson said the best way to get people to drink good beer is not to belittle what they're currently drinking. Myself I prefer to lead by example. Many, many examples. :D

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Myself I prefer to lead by example. Many, many examples. :D

I'll drink to that!!

[Richard English]

This is not the board to write a treatise about marketing, although I have more than once made mention of the four elements of the marketing mix - of which the product and its quality is but one. Gales failed not because its product was poor (Gales Pirize Old Ale is one of the finest drinks ever made) but for other reasons. Dudweiser does not succeed because its product is good but for other reasons. Take a look at what they've been trying to do to the REAL Budweiser brewery for just one example.

The "free market economy" you speak of is not free at all; it is distorted, regulated and manipulated in a massive fashion. Markets are not self-regulating and there have been many research documents published that prove this point. If markets did not need regulation we would have no laws against a free market in drugs, prostitution and pornography - all things that are in great demand but which are controlled.

The history of craft beers in the USA and the UK and the influence of CAMRA is a matter of record, which record I have tried to summarise. I am not going to argue with those who choose to argue that black is white and effectively tell me I'm talking rubbish - you go and check the facts for yourselves. Don't quote your beliefs; get the facts.

Might is not always right and there are many examples in history to prove this. And the only way in which minorities can make their views felt is by evangelising in various ways.

If I have not persuaded you then you will not be persuaded. So go your own way and let the "free" market decide. Time till tell which of us was right.

[Sladek]

Well said, Richard.

Originally posted by Richard English
Take a look at what they've been trying to do to the REAL Budweiser brewery for just one example.
Very true. One reason they are still state-run (Anheuser-Busch would buy them up immediately, if privatised), and one example of a state-run commercial operation that is well-run and performs well.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by Sladek
Well said, Richard.


Very true. One reason they are still state-run (Anheuser-Busch would buy them up immediately, if privatised), and one example of a state-run commercial operation that is well-run and performs well.

They tried to aquire them. Fortunately it was rebuffed.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by MeridianFC Not to nitpick, but there would've been a time where all the beer here was "cask". Maybe not all English BItters, but naturally carbonated in the serving container style beer. I didn't bother to make the point, but this was just one of the errors in these postings.

All beer was once cask-conditioned; bottles came later. Then later still sterile fizz-beer was invented, and its massive profit margins and long shelf-life meant that its manufacturers (I refuse to call them brewers) used the pormotional element of the marketing mix to drive them into the market. Again I won't go into details as I sell my marketing course ;-) - but you can take it from me that fizz beers sell primarily through clever promotion, not through product quality. As I said, I was there when we, in the UK, went through that phase. Any mature drinker of good beer will remember the time when Watney's "Red Revolution" was in place and shudder at the memory.

Someone told me that it was Prohibition that allowed fizz-beers to gain a foothold - but I'd have thought that was too early. If I have time I'll do some research.

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by Richard English


Someone told me that it was Prohibition that allowed fizz-beers to gain a foothold - but I'd have thought that was too early. If I have time I'll do some research.

There are many factors at play here. Just when the industrial switch to force pressurization occurred I've not been able to ascertain. As I mentioned I've seen pictorial evidence of cask like serving up until at least the 30s and I have a least one drawing of a brew house in the 1900-1920 period with a CO2 pressuring type of pump. Trying to get to the bottom of this has been a pet project of mine for some time.

There's no doubt that Prohibition over here allowed a very few brewers to control a very large portion of the market. There are other things that happened, notably AB's revolutionaly use of refrigerated transport which put them even further in front, though that groundwork was laid pre Prohibition IIRC. In any case Prohibition was bad. Damned bad. Certainly if there were few brewers who survived and they were doing things a certain way those methods were going to become de facto industry standards, which given the rise in US economic power were going to affect the rest of the world for good or ill.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by chazwicke
They tried to aquire them. Fortunately it was rebuffed. Several times, in fact, in several countries A-B tried to stop Budvar from using the Budweiser name - and succeeded in some.

In just one country in the entire world, where the supreme legislature told A-B (very politely) to get stuffed, is A-B rubbish sold as Budweiser and the real Budweiser also sold as Budweiser - often side by side.

In the USA, real Budweiser is sold as "Czechvar" and in mainland Europe A-B swill is sold as "Bud Beer" or similar.

The one country where common sense prevailed? Well, its supreme legislature is called "The House of Lords" - and they meet in the Palace of Westminster, by the River Thames.

Cheers.

[chazwicke]

Robert Portner, from our own back yard, was a pioneer in refrigeration. Had many patents and also had one of the first air conditioned homes. He also at one time was the largest brewer in the South and had more railroad cars than AB. Prohibition in VA began in 1916. Portner's did not reopen after prohibition. I had dinner with one of his grandaughters just last Monday evening.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
If markets did not need regulation we would have no laws against a free market in drugs, prostitution and pornography - all things that are in great demand but which are controlled.

We don't need laws against these things..until it comes to children. Drug use, prostitution, and pornography are all victimless crimes...and please don't argue about the families being the victims. If people were happy in their family life, they would not feel the need to ABUSE these things.

The reason that these things are currently illegal in the U.S. is because of people who are trying to push [i]their[/] beliefs and morals on to other people.

There are obviously millions of people out there who LIKE BMC products. That, and the price here in the U.S., is the reason that these products sell so well. When I walk into my local mega-mart and go to the beer aisle, I have a great choice of beers. I can get any BMC products(I don't), I can get Sam Adams(I sometimes do), and I can get Bell's and some other craft brews(I often buy these).

The choice is there. Sam Adams has a very aggresive marketing campaign in this area, and they are heads and shoulders above BMC products. I see Jim Koch on tv probably 4-5 times a day pitching his beer.

I can go one mile in any direction from my house and find a corner store that sells at least 50 different kinds of craft brews. In most of those stores, I have to walk past the craft brews to buy a macro.

I have a lot of friends who just prefer the lighter flavor. They are not ignorant or stupid or bad people, they just don't like what I like. There is nothing wrong with that Richard!!

It goes back to what I said before. Most of people are happy driving Fords, Gm's, or Chrysler's, but there are a few that want BMW, Porsches, Ferraris, and Rolls-Royces. Those companies stay afloat by charging more for their vehicles and keeping their operating costs smaller. Rolls-Royce will never have the market share that GM does, but they don't have nearly operating costs that Gm does either.

[stronk]

Richard:
you can take it from me that fizz beers sell primarily through clever promotion, not through product quality
Deco:
There are obviously millions of people out there who LIKE BMC products. That, and the price here in the U.S., is the reason that these products sell so well ... Sam Adams has a very aggresive marketing campaign in this area, and they are heads and shoulders above BMC products. I see Jim Koch on tv probably 4-5 times a day pitching his beer.
^ Aren't you agreeing here? ^

Drug use, prostitution, and pornography are all victimless crimes...
Drug use: gangs, corruption, protection money, civil war, murder, money laundering, arms trading.

Prostitution: Rape, more murder, illegal immigration, sex tourism (again, minors).

Pornography: Child pornography, voyeurism, sexual crimes.

[corkybstewart]

They don't really agree. The way I interpret Richard is that the marketing campaigns have somehow forced people to buy beer they don't like. Deco says that a lot of people DO like this beer, that's why they buy it. There's no doubt that marketing plays a big role, but I see these same commercials everyday and I'm not tempted to go out and buy that crap.

A lot of beer drinking preferences are hereditary. My father drank Miller High Life and Pabst Blue Ribbon, so that was what I started drinking(especially since I was underage and had to steal from Dad). But I see this all the time in families where I drink with 2 or 3 generations of them at the same time. They all drink the same beer Grandad drinks. My grandfather was a north Alabama hillbilly born in 1901. He drank moonshine until the end of Prohibition, and when he died he still preferred cheap whiskey instead of expensive stuff. That was what he was raised on, that was what tasted good to him. Personal preference. That's all it comes down to. Deco and I could sit and knock back a few beers and really enjoy it I think. I'm not so sure with Richard. I'm afraid he'ld start lecturing me on why I should like a particular beer I don't like and to me that's no way to spend aa day drinking. Maybe I'm wrong.

[DecoJuicer]

Corky hit the nail on the head. I don't think that people are being tricked into drinking something that they don't like. I think that they are drinking it because that is what they enjoy and because it is much more affordable.

Originally posted by stronk
Drug use: gangs, corruption, protection money, civil war, murder, money laundering, arms trading.

Prostitution: Rape, more murder, illegal immigration, sex tourism (again, minors).

Pornography: Child pornography, voyeurism, sexual crimes.

I already mentioned that we need the laws to protect children, so sex tourism for minors and child pornography aren't arguements from me.

Drugs: All of these things that you mention are a direct result of making drugs illegal. If drugs were grown by domestic farmers and legal to buy on an open market, none of those problems would exist. Besides, I said drug use, not drug sales. There is a distinction.

Prostitution: Two people having consentual sex should not be a matter for the courts, even if one of the parties is receiving payment for the sex. Rape doesn't fly because statistically less prostitutes are raped than non-working girls. Murder also falls into that catagory. Prostitutes are very street smart and often have better instincts about scum bags then cops do. Illegal immigration isn't a problem caused by prostitution, prostitution is a problem caused by illegal immigration. Women don't sneak into this country to become prostitutes. They could stay in their own countries and do that. Don't believe me, go to Tiajuana, Mexico sometime.

Pornography: Again, not a valid arguement because a lot of people who watch pronography NEVER commit these crimes. That is like blaming terrorism on the movie Die Hard. I watched the moive, but I never felt the need to take over the Nakatomi building. Pornography does not promote crime, criminals promote crime. The p.d. that I work for has arrested our share of flashers and rapists, and upon searching their homes, many of them don't even have dirty magazines.

I won't speak for everybody, but I can say that I have watched pornography and I have never committed a sex crime or peeped in someodies window. Nor have I ever felt the desire too.

By the way Corky, I certainly hope that we can sit together and have a few of those beers someday.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
. Deco and I could sit and knock back a few beers and really enjoy it I think. I'm not so sure with Richard. I'm afraid he'ld start lecturing me on why I should like a particular beer I don't like and to me that's no way to spend aa day drinking. Maybe I'm wrong.

I have had beers with Richard on at least three occasions. He is great fun to drink with and nobody lectures anyone. It sometimes is hard to put into written word the exact point you are trying to make. In person there is an easier exchange. I have met and supped beers with around 20 different folks from this board and I IM regularly with others whom I have not yet met in person. I have enjoyed every meeting. (Some I have met several times.) Some of these folks I now consider good friends. I'd sit and drink with any of you on this board. I can say that perceptions of people on this board are sometimes not exactly how they are when you meet them in person. I'm looking forward to meeting more folks from the board as I always enjoy talking about our favorite subject, beer. And I'm looking forward to meeting Deco and his wife this fall when they come to DC. Anyone else heading this way give me a shout.

[hops99]

This thread needs an enema!

A couple more thoughts:

* Richard, I can't help but believe that you're "gilding the lily" here. I don't think that anyone is challenging the fact that CAMRA has been an influential force in the propagation of craft beer, but your assertion that CAMRA is "solely" responsible for the resurgence in the U.S. is poppycock. I would suggest you check the proper definition of the word "solely". I could name several examples of craft brewers here in the states who took alternate routes to success, sans the good folks at CAMRA. Hell, THE most successful craft brewer here, Jim Koch at Boston Beer Company, started his company based on his grandfather's recipe (a recipe that was concocted when the good folks in CAMRA were, at best, in diapers). Tom Pastorius at Penn Brewing started his fine business 20 years ago based on his experiences years earlier in Germany. I could go on.

* I've always liked the phrase "good people drink good beer". I've never met a fellow craft beer enthusiast that I didn't find interesting, or wouldn't want to meet again. However, I don't connect the dots to say "bad people drink bad beer". That's where I draw the line, and I believe "snobbery" sets in, which incidentally is the subject of this thread.

* To quote Fritz Maytag "There's only so far you can go with beer, and I've always liked that". In other words, it's just beer, folks. Sure, it's a big part of MY life (I'm a retail market owner with a focus on fine wine and craft beer, for those of you who don't know), but I'd never let my personal views on beer affect relationships with others. Live and let live.

[Richard English]

There is no point in arguing about history when the facts can so easily be established. So far as I am aware there is not one single craft brewer in the USA that started before CAMRA was founded. The "father" of craft brewing in the USA learnt about good beer in the UK - and good beer in the UK, at the time he learnt about it, had been saved by CAMRA.

Check the facts, check the dates.

So far as markets are concerned, they are neither self-regulating nor free. I only named three activities where free markets don't work - I could name many, many more, many of them quite legal.

Most classical music and theatre, for example, survives through subsidy since there aren't enough people around who would pay a realistic box-office price. The same could be said for most railways and, these days, many airlines (Chapter 11, anyone?).

Some might agree that market forces should prevail and these things simply die out - but that's another argument.

Interestingly, the USA, the citizens of which vaunt a "free" market, has one of the more interventionist Governments in market matters. And, I can promise you if you don't already know, there will be more intervention still now that China and India are rapidly overhauling the USA as the world's major producer of consumer goods and services.

Sadly, in most countries there is no State intervention for small brewers and, if they don't sell their products they will go out of business. As has been stated many people in the USA drink the mega-breweries' chemical fizz and they will only be persuaded by those of us who know better. No small brewer can match the marketing might of the mega-breweries and, make no mistake about it, the mega-brewers sell their products through clever marketing - and I could give myriad examples of the ways they do that, both overt and covert.

Incidentally, a few years ago I struck up an e-relationship with an American who claimed "Not to like beer". After trying good beer for the first time, that same American is now more evangelical about beer than even I am. Most of those who drink chemical fizz do so because they have never tried anything else and because they like what they drink, see no reason to. We none of us know what we're missing until we try it.

[hops99]

The "father" of craft brewing in the USA learnt about good beer in the UK - and good beer in the UK, at the time he learnt about it, had been saved by CAMRA.

Who is the "father"? If you're referring to Fritz, I believe he revived Anchor well before CAMRA's 1971 inception.


Check the facts, check the dates.

What facts? You've referred to the "facts" several times during this thread, but have yet to specify. Please show me something other than innuendo and coincidence.

[Richard English]

I do not mean Fritz Maytag and have already commented on his purchase of Anchor Steam in this very thread. Go back and check.

Most people agree that the father of US craft brewing is Jack McAuliffe.

I have made no innuenda in my postings and have quoted a number of facts - which you choose to refute. I do not intend to go to the many sites (like CAMRA's) and copy and paste big chunks of historical data - that would be an abuse of this board. You can check for yourself and, if you find evidence that supports your case and/or proves me wrong I shall glady admit my error.

What I am not going to do is indulge in cheap badinage which simply wastes time and doubtless irritates many.

[hops99]

Most people agree that the father of US craft brewing is Jack McAuliffe.

I would heartily disagree with this assertion. By the time Jack started New Albion, Anchor was brewing world-class craft brews such as Liberty Ale and Our Special Ale, to name a few. New Albion is romanticized at times in the U.S. (and apparently in your case, abroad as well), but Anchor was the bridge in U.S. history connecting craft beers of past generations to the present.


You can check for yourself and, if you find evidence that supports your case and/or proves me wrong I shall glady admit my error.

The last thing I'm trying to do is play a game of "gotcha". That would be a waste of my time, as well as yours. However, I have perused the CAMRA website backwards and forwards, and have yet to see a direct link that establishes the good work of CAMRA's founders directly to the U.S. craft beer revival. I'll agree to disagree with you at this stage.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by hops99
I would heartily disagree with this assertion. By the time Jack started New Albion, Anchor was brewing world-class craft brews such as Liberty Ale and Our Special Ale, to name a few. I agree. And Anchor was not then, and is not now, a craft brewer. It was a long-established brewery which was saved by Fritz Maytag. Had he not stepped in with cash Anchor would have been closed or taken over - just as hundreds of other US breweries were before it. Whether it would have become profitable had it not been for the coincidence of the later craft beer revival is something we'll never know.

I do not consider that Anchor was any kind of "bridge" any more than I would give that accolade to Fullers or Youngs - or any other of our traditional breweries that managed to survive the fizz-beer onslaught and ultimately to prosper following the Real Ale revival. Had it not been for CAMRA they would, as had hundreds of UK breweries before them, have failed.

Before CAMRA was founded there had not been a new brewery started in the UK for around a hundred years - although hundreds had been closed - but since CAMRA there have been hundreds (24 in 2006 just to date). Without CAMRA there would have been no Real Ale revival in the UK and Jack McAuliffe would not have been able to acquire his taste for good beer; there would have been none. In 1971 (when CAMRA was founded) I had been drinking beer for around 14 years and I know what was happening to our beer. And I know what happened to it after just a decade of CAMRA's influence.

As it happens, I don't rate Anchor all that highly myself; compared to Dudweiser it is wonderful - but compared with many of the later US brews and most UK brews it is only reasonable.

CAMRA's website does not have as much history as I'd have thought it should have - though you need to be a member to get all the information it contains. However there are plenty of other sources you can check.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
[B]Most classical music and theatre, for example, survives through subsidy since there aren't enough people around who would pay a realistic box-office price. The same could be said for most railways and, these days, many airlines (Chapter 11, anyone?).

Some might agree that market forces should prevail and these things simply die out - but that's another argument.B]

I agree completely...they should die out. Any business that can not support itself shouldn't be propped up by the government. Including breweries. We are seeing the fallout from that in this country right now. A lot of so called "dot coms" were given venture capital from the government and spent money like it was free. When the venture capitol ran out though, most of them closed their doors and put a lot of people out of work.

I am in favor of the government pulling all subsidies from all businesses. Why should I pay for a product that I don't use? If people enjoy opera and theater(many of which, by the way, receive most of their subsidies from PRIVATE donations) then let those that attend, pay for it, whatever the price.

The airlines are a different story. Most of the big businesses these days are declaring bankrupcty so that they can break their contracts with their unions and retirees, and those corporate officers should be prosecuted for fraud. That's all I'll say about that.

[Richard English]

As I said, that's another argument - and one that I will not get into.

I will only say that, if the commercial viablilty of a product or service is to be the sole criterion for its survival - then there are a great many things we now enjoy which we would lose.

[chazwicke]

Maytag rescued a failing "Regional" brewery. He was not the first micro. Maytag is a bit of an ass. I have attended tastings, talked with him, seen and read interviews with him. He will tell you that he traveled to Germany and England and totally dismissed all of those countries beers. He will also tell you that Anchor has sold beer that was from inferior batches and such or on the verge of spoilage so that they would not have to dump it. He has been influential although only somewhat helpful to those whom have followed him. He claims he owns the term "Steam" beer and tries to prevent others from using the term. (Not unlike Miller and what they claimed and tried to do with the term "Lite / Light" in thw 70s. He has chosen not to expand any futher but allows other craft brewers to have some of his marketing share that he could have had. He also enjoys the fruits of the craft brewing movement some of whom incorrectly believe he was always a craft brewer and have foisted him on a pedestal.

McAuliffe was indeed the first modern micro brewer and did get his inspiration while serving in the military and being stationed in the UK / Scotland. I have met with folks who were involved with him from the very beginning and now run the successful Mendocino Brewing that was built from New Albion's beginnings. I also have a good friend who served with McAuliffe. All accounts are that he was also a crazy man. Many humerous stories.

I do not believe that all craft brewing in the USA stemmed from CAMRA (of which I am a proud Life Member). There were several early East Coast breweries that stemmed from German influence. Uli Bennowitz who started and owns Weeping Radish hails from Germany and Wolfgang Roth was the German brewer imported to work at Chesbay, Weeping Radish, and Virgina Brewing Co. I do however believe that English and European influence on those that sampled great beers in their respective countries was the impetus or inspiration for many of the original craft brewers. They had travelled and been exposed to the wonderous brews that were available and wanted to bring them back here. I do believe that CAMRA has had a large impact too.

I too can remember the times in the USA when we were down to about 40 brewing companies in the 70s. Producing about 90% crap. The beers that were marginally better at that time were the European imports.

Back to the original point of the thread, I think that most of us would allow a friend who brought his own beer to bring it in to our houses and drink it if it was what he liked. Its just that some of us won't provide it. Just as we don't mind bringing our beer to other occassions where most are drinking swill and usually don't provide for us. In my own case, I've been doing this beer thing for so long that nearly everyone I know is aware of my obsession and I have few friends or close aquaintences who don't share my favor for good beer. Nearly all of my friends and family are beer people too. Either they are beer afficianodos or breweriana collectors. Most of the time both. Most of my drinking employees also appreciate good beer ( Well, there is one who won't give up her Corona even though her fiance and I are long time friends and beer buddies. 20 years.) I guess I just don't get faced with this situation often. Most of those in my world like good beer.

[corkybstewart]

I would love to sit down and enjoy (or not) a wide selction of real cask ales, just as I would the beer of any place I travel to. If I decided that cask ales are not my cup of tea, I would hope that anybody else would have the consideration to respect my decision and not try to browbeat me into thinking I like it because I should. That's no less aggressive a marketing campaign than what crap beers inflict on the world. The last time I was in Belgium I tasted some beers that were godawful in my opinion, but somebody must like it since it's on the market, and the menu.

So Richard, I will sit down with you one day and have a beer and let you explain the history of CAMRA. But I will reserve the right to tell you with all honesty and sincerity whether or not I like the beer. That will have nothing to do with whether I like you or not. I don't judge people by the beer company they keep.
And with that I'll unsubscribe to this thread for now, I need to get some things done.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by chazwicke
He claims he owns the term "Steam" beer and tries to prevent others from using the term.

Both Newquay Steam (in the UK) and Bay Area Brewery in Perth (Australia) brewed Steam beer. Both have now stopped production, I believe, but I hadn't heard that is had anything to do with Anchor.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by corkybstewart

So Richard, I will sit down with you one day and have a beer and let you explain the history of CAMRA. But I will reserve the right to tell you with all honesty and sincerity whether or not I like the beer.

I will look forward to that. And I have no problem with your liking or disliking a particular beer - that is your right. Indeed, as the head brewer of Brakespear said to my stepfather once, "I like to hear about people who don't like my beer - that means that is has enough character that people can form an opinion about it.

My objection to those who drink chemical fizz is not usually that they prefer it to real beer, but that they have never bothered to try real beer. Check out the Oxford Bottled Beer Database and you'll see reports on all sorts of beer. And you can be quite sure that there will be someone who says, of some chemical fizz, "its the best beer their is in the hole wurld" (the bad spelling is normal) - and that statement must be nonsense since nobody, even Michael Jackson, has tried all the beers in the world. Strangely you don't see such postings about proper beer - you will get comments like, "The very best beer of its type that I have ever tried" - which comments leave open the possibility that there might be something even better.

[newportstorm]

Anchor Brewing Co. is a craft brewer. Call them micro, regional, whatever. They are a craft brewer. Think what you'd like about Fritz Maytag - I've no feelings one way or another on the man, but his brewery is most certainly a craft brewery. What a few people thinks of Anchor's beers, their decision to limit expansion and possibly lose market share, etc. is really beside the point. Their products speak for themselves - they're quality and often times fill a gap between mass marketed beers and smaller, more obscure brands.

If Fritz wants to claim ownership of the term "Steam Beer"...big deal. Let someone else come forth and challenge him if they feel wronged. If not, who cares? Few Steam Beers/California Commons are brewed on a large scale and I don't think anyone's toes are stepped on. Fritz has built his brand and is looking to protect it - right or wrong. I don't begrudge him. Hell, many people don't understand the name of the brewery is "Anchor Brewing Co." - not "Anchor Steam". With that kind of name recognition, I can't blame the guy for wanting to protect it.

Cheers!

[chazwicke]

I still have a beer mat from Newquay I had it in 89. Don't recall the taste though. Steam was a style that was born of necessity through out the West during the settlement of the country. Maytag's claims are silly. Miller tried to claim that "Lite" a term used by Meisterbrau in the 1950s and was bought out by Miller, was their copyrighted term. It included the spelling "light" which Schlitz was using and AB was using on their new beers Schlitz Light and Natural Light. Miller lost in court but this was when light beers were first being readily marketed by all the big brewers. This happened about the time Miller started brewing Lowenbrau and tried to pass it off as the German product. The only place you could find the brewery info was on the bottom of the six pack holder. Miller had bought the rights to brew it here. they packaged it to look just like the formerly imprted German variety and quietly put it on the market. Very sneaky. The 1970s was a bad time for beer in the States. Another thing that happened back them was that Schlitz hired a bunch of efficientcy experts to come in and they changed the formula for the beer. The new formula was even worse than the old Schlitz. Schlitz the number 2 brewer lost huge market shares and loyal drinkers. this was the beginning of their swift demise.

[chazwicke]

Originally posted by newportstorm
Anchor Brewing Co. is a craft brewer. Call them micro, regional, whatever. They are a craft brewer. Think what you'd like about Fritz Maytag - I've no feelings one way or another on the man, but his brewery is most certainly a craft brewery. What a few people thinks of Anchor's beers, their decision to limit expansion and possibly lose market share, etc. is really beside the point. Their products speak for themselves - they're quality and often times fill a gap between mass marketed beers and smaller, more obscure brands.

If Fritz wants to claim ownership of the term "Steam Beer"...big deal. Let someone else come forth and challenge him if they feel wronged. If not, who cares? Few Steam Beers/California Commons are brewed on a large scale and I don't think anyone's toes are stepped on. Fritz has built his brand and is looking to protect it - right or wrong. I don't begrudge him. Hell, many people don't understand the name of the brewery is "Anchor Brewing Co." - not "Anchor Steam". With that kind of name recognition, I can't blame the guy for wanting to protect it.

Cheers! I agree that Anchor is a Craft Brewery. But not the first modern Micro. It was a Regional that Maytag turned into a craft brewery. It was not a micro.
And I like Anchors beers. I served the Liberty at my wedding many moons ago. I often really like the Xmas beer. But I don't like the guy and his dismissiveness to anyone else who might make good beer. Or his assertion that European brews were crap. Especially when he admits to selling crap himself on occasion to avoid having to dump it. One such instance has now generated a collectable. He had a batch that was nearly gone bad because of the circustances resulting from the 89 earthquake. Instead of dumping it, they packaged it in bottles and put the labels on upside down. they were careful to only sell this batch very locally in SF. Now those bottles have become collectable.

[DecoJuicer]

Richard,

I want to apologize, here in public, for the intensity of our debate. I sometimes let my alligator mouth run away with my canary ass, and it wasn't my intention to blow this way out of proportion.

I stand by my viewpoints, as I am sure that you stand by yours. I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

I look forward to the time when the 2 of us can sit down together over a couple of pints and maybe learn a little bit about, and from, each other.

You are obviously a very passionate person about beer, and as a person who has some similar passions, I can understand where you are coming from.

So I will extend a virtual handshake, and hopefully we can end this silliness.

Mike

[Richard English]

Thank you. No apology is necessary but I, too, apologise if I have appeared unduly dogmatic or assertive.

Debate is important and I am happy to indulge in it with anyone; that I might disagree - even vehemently - with another's views, does not affect my feelings about them.

One of the better aspects of this website is that arguments do not degenerate into personal attacks - and I sincerely hope that it long retains this distinction.

Over the years I have met several people who post on this board and I hope to meet many more. Not one has been anything but a delightful drinking companion and it proves, if proof were needed, the excellent aid that fine beer can be to social intercourse.

[newportstorm]

Originally posted by chazwicke
I agree that Anchor is a Craft Brewery. But not the first modern Micro. It was a Regional that Maytag turned into a craft brewery. It was not a micro.
And I like Anchors beers. I served the Liberty at my wedding many moons ago. I often really like the Xmas beer. But I don't like the guy and his dismissiveness to anyone else who might make good beer. Or his assertion that European brews were crap. Especially when he admits to selling crap himself on occasion to avoid having to dump it. One such instance has now generated a collectable. He had a batch that was nearly gone bad because of the circustances resulting from the 89 earthquake. Instead of dumping it, they packaged it in bottles and put the labels on upside down. they were careful to only sell this batch very locally in SF. Now those bottles have become collectable.

"Microbrewery" is a term that will soon fall by the wayside, if it hasn't already. It's too limiting and doesn't apply to many breweries that started out within its limits but have expanded, yet kept the quality, passion and direction of the brewery high.

I, too, served Anchor Liberty at my wedding. Made a great day just a bit better.

"Almost gone bad"? Is that like "kind of pregnant"? ;)

Cheers!

[Richard English]

In the UK there is a tax advantage (gained in response to CAMRA's lobbying) to smaller breweries - which is why some deliberately stay small.

However, it based on barrelage, not on the description that the brewery chooses to give itself. Otherwise you can be quite sure that A-B would call itself a micro-brewery ;-)

[stronk]

I already mentioned that we need the laws to protect children ... Nor have I ever felt the desire too.
Fair enough. Not the board for this debate. My fault.

[liRetro]

Back to the beer snobbery discussion, I know people who consider Pilsner the only worthy beer. I on the other hand appreciate almost all beers (there are some things that should never be made) regardless of likes or dislikes. I feel snobs are the types that cut themselves off from the joy of experiencing life regardless of the wins or the losses. Is not finding out that the beer that your friend just passed you was the worlds most bitter, hoppiest, eye squinting brew ever after you taste it :mad: (even though you hate ultra bitter beers) part of life and what makes it woth living?

Perhaps not trying something a second time (except from the tap if bottle is all you know) is just something we chalk up to experience, but just because anheuser-bush makes it does not mean I wont try it just once.

[corkybstewart]

Liretro, welcome to realbeer. Your location is interesting, since as far as I'm concerned anywhere outside of my garage is the land of bad beer. I have to drive 150 mile one way to buy Unibroue or most other good beers.
My motto in life has always been to try anything twice, and since my wife was raised on a poor farm in France and they eat anything, that motto has sometimes been challenging. I refuse to dictate to anyone what is "good". My good is not yours or anybody elses. Don't ask me to drink your "swill' and I won't force my "good" beer on you. Both are wasted.
So where is this mythical land of bad beer?

[cewldre]

I enjoy good beer, and am slowly joining the ranks of the craft beer fans, but I should probably not call myself a full fledge fan yet, despite the fact I don't really drink macros anymore. I only got into craft beers about 4 months ago, after stumbling across some arrongant bastard. I started researching different beers, fell in love with the different kinds. My tastes are not refined enough to like some styles still, but I am still learning.

I am not a snob, but I would consider myself a geek, or getting there. I can't say I am a snob though, because I have a case of bud light in my fridge right now... no, not for me, but for all my friends who come by. It's hard to talk to people about craft beers while in still in college since they can buy a case of beer for the price of one or two bottles of some of the beers we've probably all tried... I do what I can for the cause, but it is tough. Any suggestions how to convert even the tight budgeted college students?

[revans618]

Wow! I never thought this thread would take off like this. This has been interesting to follow. Maybe after reading all these posts I should have said something other than beer snob. I did like the term "Beer Geek" though.

I guess I am somewhat of snob because alot of my friends even after trying some of the beers I offer them, they still fall back on the macros. And when they come over with that stuff I don't say anything but I'm thinking, "Man, where are your taste buds?"

I do live and let live though. All you can do is get them to try some and if they go back to Bud or whatever I just think that's more of the good stuff for me.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by liRetro
Back to the beer snobbery discussion, I know people who consider Pilsner the only worthy beer. Most Czechs think only their style, i.e., pilsner, is "beer". To me, that's worse than snobbish; that's closed-minded.

Very interesting thread! A word about Anchor: I didn't know Maytag was such a douche. A shame. Anchor Steam was one of the first craft/micro/non-shit beers that I drank, and the Liberty the first American Pale Ale that really opened my eyes and taste buds. And it's in Frisco. Therefore, it has a special place in my heart. I like all of their brews, especially their Summer Wheat; even the Small Beer. Fritz is getting old; I wonder what the future holds for Anchor...

Chaz, your knowledge of the American micros and breweriana is astounding; I'd love to have a few with you and talk beer history!

[BignJames]

Wow...what a thread! I have made the progression of trying, and enjoying, many different beers/ ales of many different styles, to not being able to drink bud/miller lite, to brewing my own in 4 short months.

I honestly cannot drink a macro anymore. I've got an 18 pack of miller lite that's been in the fridge since January. Maybe someday someone will drink it...but it won't be me.

[Richard English]

Put it into jam-jars and sink them into the ground in your garden. Slugs seem to love chemical fizz beers and will slide over themselves to commit suicide in the stuff. It's better than slug pellets (and probably more humane).

[DecoJuicer]

You can also pour it on to your compost pile(if you have one). Works great there to.

[BignJames]

Well, I suppose I could make 18 beer can chickens wirh it.

[hops99]

I didn't know Maytag was such a douche.

I'd keep an open mind about Fritz, and find out for yourself.

[MeridianFC]

Maytag may be cantankerous, ornry, opinienated, etc. but a douche he is not. I don't agree with everything he says, certainly about British beer but there's not doubting his commitment and contribution to good beer in these United States.

Maytag is a beer hall of famer.

[Richard English]

"Douche"

Since this word means a form of bodily cavity irrigation in the UK, maybe you could share your slang with those of us who do not live in the USA (that's only around 90% of the world's population, of course - but please humour us :-)

What exactly do you mean when you suggest that Fritz Maytag is "a douche"?

[corkybstewart]

The full term is "douche bag", the utensil involved in irrigating said body cavity.

[Sladek]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Maytag may be cantankerous, ornry, opinienated, etc. but a douche he is not. I don't agree with everything he says, certainly about British beer but there's not doubting his commitment and contribution to good beer in these United States.

Maytag is a beer hall of famer. I was responding to Chaz' description of him. Let me revise my statement: I hadn't realized he was "cantankerous, ornry, opinienated". Chaz's description of him made him sound, to me, like an ass. I don't know him from a goat. I WITHDRAW THE STATEMENT.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
The full term is "douche bag", the utensil involved in irrigating said body cavity.

I see. But apart from being offensive - is it especially descriptive? I suspect not.

Cantankerous and self-opinionated I understand and can therefrom form an opinion, but simple insults seem rather pointless to me.

[corkybstewart]

Forgive us, we are simple minded Americans. We love our pointless and stupid insults.
On another note, Richard. My wife and I were talking about the good old days last night, and she was telling me about a motorcycle trip she took thru England in the early 70's. She went to some sort of huge beer festival where cask ales were the emphasis. It would seem that even back then y'all still loved your real ales. When did the chemical fizz movement start?

[Sladek]

Let's say I'm hanging out with friends and they were talking about a person named Mr. X. Mr. X is dismissive to anyone else who might make good beer. Mr. X asserts that European beer is crap. Mr. X happens to be a brewer, and has admitted to selling crap occasionally, to avoid dumping. Now, in this situation, as I've said, hanging out with friends, I would say, "wow, this guy's a <fill in the blank>!"


I guess you people don't watch enough South Park.

[Richard English]

Chemical fizz started in the 1960s and was really getting a hold by the 1970s. All the forecasts were that chemical fizz (ours was the likes of Watney's Red Barral and Whitbread Tankard) would have driven out proper beer by the 1980s.

Then along came CAMRA and, within just a decade, Real Ale was fighting back and beer festivals such as the one your wife visited were becoming very common. Now we have one, or several, each week.

I am sorry if I appear pedantic about langiage - that is because I am a pedant about language;-)

But I am also a real beer enthusiast and, incidentally, a motor cycle enthusiast as well - what 'bike did your wife ride?

[Richard English]

Originally posted by Sladek
LMr. X happens to be a brewer, and has admitted to selling crap occasionally, to avoid dumping. Now, in this situation, as I've said, hanging out with friends, I would say, "wow, this guy's a <fill in the blank>!"

I would say (see my point about pedantry) "This guy's dishonest, untutored, unversed in the ways of good beers, an upleasant fellow and person with whom I do not wish to treat and one with whom I suggest you do not associate".

It is easier, I agree, simply to call him a douche" - but is it quite so informative or even as accurate?

This is not to say, of course, that I have not used such expressions vocally; it's just that in writing I allow myself the luxury of greater accuracy and range of expression.

[MeridianFC]

Douche (and douchebag) carry certainly colloquial power in their dismissiveness. It's certainly a very American piece of slang. The nearest British equivilant I can think of, as far as a vulgar populist put down would be wanksock.

Two countries separated by a common language (redux).

[corkybstewart]

I think it was a Honda 750, but I'm not 100% sure. She was just the passenger, the bike belonged to a girl she worked with in France. They spent about 3 weeks camping in England, Wales and Scotland. Even though she's French when we've been in England she translates for me. I don't speak or understand "English" very well but she lived in London for a year before moving over here and she learned "English".

[Sladek]

Originally posted by Richard English
I am sorry if I appear pedantic about langiage - that is because I am a pedant about language;-)
And I thought I was a pedant about language. I have to admit I bristled a bit at your comment, "in writing I allow myself the luxury of greater accuracy and range of expression", as I take language very seriously. Clearly I have chosen the wrong group of people to "speak" a wee bit off the cuff. If the word I used is considered offensive and even vulgar, then I'm most certainly in the wrong place.

[DecoJuicer]

Sladek,

AS a person who greatly enjoys a good disgusting insult, I was right there with you. I knew what you meant. I wasn't insulted by the term.

Meridian,

It's funny how to cultures who speak the same language(in theory) can have vastly different offensive words. For instance, several guys that I know that are from the UK are very quick to throw around a word that starts with c and rhymes with punt. According to them, it is offensive, but no more than many of our off-handed slang words.

In the states, if you use that word around a woman, she just may stick a pen in your eye. Most of the women that I know say that word is THE most offensive word they can think of.

Richard,

In the states(where 90% of the people on this board are from), it is very common for guys to use extreme vulgarity around their friends and compatriots. Think of it as bonding. When a guy uses these words around you, he is really saying, "I think you're ok, you don't seem to have a stick in your ass." Know that by using these terms around you, we are accepting you into OUR group.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by Richard English
I would say (see my point about pedantry) "This guy's dishonest, untutored, unversed in the ways of good beers, an upleasant fellow and person with whom I do not wish to treat and one with whom I suggest you do not associate".

It is easier, I agree, simply to call him a douche" - but is it quite so informative or even as accurate?

This is not to say, of course, that I have not used such expressions vocally; it's just that in writing I allow myself the luxury of greater accuracy and range of expression.


But by saying, "That guy's a douche bag," I can say in 6 words what it took you 34 words to say and still get my point across.

The average person speaks 20-30 words a minute, so I am saving myself a full minute(maybe more) in which I can put delightful, delicious, wonderful beer into my mouth.

Also, by using big polysyllabic words, many people may miss the point, or just think that you were mildly unhappy with Mr. X. If I want people to know that I really don't like Mr. X, a harsh, insulting, blunt word gets that point across quick.

[hops99]

But by saying, "That guy's a douche bag," I can say in 6 words what it took you 34 words to say and still get my point across.

LMAO

[cewldre]

fellas, I am not trying to steal the fun little debate going on here, but is there really a point to deciding which culture has the best insults?

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by cewldre
fellas, I am not trying to steal the fun little debate going on here, but is there really a point to deciding which culture has the best insults?

I would expect that kind of comment from somebody from Ohio.;)

Just kidding. I really couldn't resist. I'm feeling a bit saucy tonight.

[cewldre]

well, I can insult others with the best of them... I was really just curious what was going on.

[Richard English]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
Douche (and douchebag) carry certainly colloquial power in their dismissiveness. It's certainly a very American piece of slang. The nearest British equivilant I can think of, as far as a vulgar populist put down would be wanksock.

Two countries separated by a common language (redux).

That's not a term I have ever heard used in my part of England.

And it is quite true that we do have a different range of insults as well. The point I was trying to make was not a matter of prudishness but simply of accuracy. The use of swearwords is fine if all involved know what they mean, but there is far more scope form misunderstanding that there is with normal vocabulary - and, goodness knows, there's plenty of scope for misunderstanding there.

It might well be that the swearword used as an insult may convery the right meaning - but there's certainly no guarantee that it will do so.

A good US example is the term "wuss" or "wussy" which has no meaning in the UK. Providing you know that it means a weak and ineffective person, then it's useful verbal shorthand. But if you don't, then it wastes times and has the potential to create misunderstanding.

[Grog]

If a person knows what douche is, and douche is used as a term to describe another person, it is obviously an insult, no? If dickhead, asshole, cocksucker, fuckwad or shitbag were chosen would it have mattered as much? An insult is an insult. So what's the use in debating the accuracy of an insult?

[Beefsteak]

Originally posted by Grog
If a person knows what douche is, and douche is used as a term to describe another person, it is obviously an insult, no? If dickhead, asshole, cocksucker, fuckwad or shitbag were chosen would it have mattered as much? An insult is an insult. So what's the use in debating the accuracy of an insult?
Well, I can think of some ways that "douche" could be considered a compliment, but I don't think I really wanna go there. ;)

[surfadelic23]

I thought Wuss was a hybrid...
You know, part whimp part puss...

[MeridianFC]

Originally posted by cewldre
fellas, I am not trying to steal the fun little debate going on here, but is there really a point to deciding which culture has the best insults?

As an aside, Rheinhold Aman who publishes the scholarly journal "Maledicta" believes the Hungarians are the most foul mouthed people on the face of the earth. He gave an example of a curse/put down that would melt granite.

Back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

[fretlessman71]

Beer is a four letter word - just thought I'd point that out.

[threecb]

Originally posted by fretlessman71
Beer is a four letter word - just thought I'd point that out.

But if someone said "Go beer yourself!", I just might...

[revans618]

Originally posted by threecb
But if someone said "Go beer yourself!", I just might...

Good one. I'll remember that one.:D

[cewldre]

well, if someone said that to me, I'd certainly have to agree with their assessment for they are a very wise person.

[corkybstewart]

Hell, I'm beering myself blind right now. (Belgian extra strong)

[Bloodaxe]

Re. "douche bag". is it a relatively newish insult? I've only become aware of it the last few months- mostly through the internet- and I'd never heard of it previously, after all we're familiar with most US expressions through TV programmes.
Actually many British men are pretty foul mouthed around their mates too and insulting each other is usual. "Taking the piss" at work is pretty much a national hobby, you have to be pretty thick skinned to take some of the (good natured) abuse levelled at you.
As for the beer snob bit- yep, I'm one! I'll only drink good stuff.
Buuut! I have both good beer and rubbish beer too in my house, I've found that many people (sadly) have no interest in decent beer so you might as well save your money and give 'em cheap muck! (And yes, I've got a little Scots blood in me!)

[fretlessman71]

No, that term has been around for as long as women have been douching. We Americans don't miss an opportunity to be rude when it presents itself...

[cewldre]

it's a fairly old insult, but I don't think I have ever heard it on any television program, so if that is how you hear a lot of our insults, that would probably explain why you've never heard it.

[Beefsteak]

...yes, and those who are douchebags are masters in the art of douchebaggery.

[corkybstewart]

Saturday Night Live did a skit about a member of the English House of Lords, The Duke of Douchebag. He drank vinegar and water at a cocktail party, and he was with his wife the Duchess of Douchebag. It was pretty funny, but it's been probably 10 years since I saw it.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Saturday Night Live did a skit about a member of the English House of Lords, The Duke of Douchebag. He drank vinegar and water at a cocktail party, and he was with his wife the Duchess of Douchebag. It was pretty funny, but it's been probably 10 years since I saw it.

I remember that skit. Nobody could remember a time when there wasn't a douchebag in the house of lords. :D

[surfadelic23]

"Saturday Night Live did a skit about a member of the English House of Lords, The Duke of Douchebag. He drank vinegar and water at a cocktail party, and he was with his wife the Duchess of Douchebag. It was pretty funny, but it's been probably 10 years since I saw it."

My favorite line was after the Duke of D. said something Belushi who was playing the Earl of Sandwiche I believe said
"Ah yes, spoken like a true Douchebag"

Thanks Corky,
Hadn't thought about that one in yrs!

[corkybstewart]

I wonder if SNL gets any airplay in the UK? Is there an archive a person can go to to watch old skits?

[Sladek]

Originally posted by surfadelic23
My favorite line was after the Duke of D. said something Belushi who was playing the Earl of Sandwiche I believe said
"Ah yes, spoken like a true Douchebag"
See? I guess you have to be an American that grew up in the 70s and 80s (me, 80s) to know it. I was surprised to hear it on South Park, but then, Trey and Matt are children of that era.

[DecoJuicer]

They used to say it all the time on NYPD Blue. That's when I started using it again.

I do recall the SNL skit, and it always cracks me up.

[zaphod]

I too prefer "beer lover", but call it what you want. I just don't see the point in wasting money on macros. There was a time when I would drink whatever was the cheapest(thankfully those times are long gone). Most of my friends still go that route, which keeps them away from mine. I mean they think Bud Select, Molson, Corona, etc are "exotic". It just makes sense to me to spend a little more and enjoy it, I don't drink Folgers coffee, Hershey's Chocolate or eat Wonder bread. Why would I pay to drink something that is marginally better than tap water? I have no problem with anyone who choses macros, just don't ask me to partake.

[corkybstewart]

I roast and grind my own coffee beans, but st work I drink Folgers. I use Hershey's cocoa for cooking and hot chocolate, but if I want to eat chocolate I'll buy Ghiardellis(sp). I only eat whole wheat bread, but toasted Wonder bread is the best for eating with high quality liver pates. YThe point I'm making is that there is a time and place for everything, and I'm willing to make exceptions for anything. I helped a freind move into a 2 story house 2 weeks ago. After 4 hours of lugging furniture up stairs I was rewarded with a lukewarm Coors, which I drank. Of course I quickly went home and rinsed my mouth out with a Sam Adams and settled into my hammock with a few Erdinger hefes and a couple of Mackelson stouts.

[Seymour]

Y'know, it's funny about coffee. I'm an avowed coffeeholic, but at work I swill the institutional stuff, and home I usually DO drink Folgers, mainly because I'm too cheap to buy the high-end stuff which tastes better. Yet I'll spend an ungodly amount of money on beer when I go to a specialty store and see beers I've never had before. Maybe I need to re-examine my priorities...

[zaphod]

Seymour, your priorities are fine. Given the choice, better beer always wins. Bad coffee will still wake you up in the A.M., bad beer just makes me miserable?:(

[corkybstewart]

I paid $79 for a Zach and Dani roaster, and I pay about $4/lb for green beans. I roast 2 batches, about 2/3 lb, every Sunday and that lasts all week. So I'm not paying top dollar for "high end" coffee. When I made my coffee porter I used 1 batch of decaf Colombian beans, roasted on Saturday, steeped and poured into the keg on Sunday. What an amazing aroma and taste. I'm going to enter it in a competition next month.

[Seymour]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
I paid $79 for a Zach and Dani roaster, and I pay about $4/lb for green beans. I roast 2 batches, about 2/3 lb, every Sunday and that lasts all week. So I'm not paying top dollar for "high end" coffee. When I made my coffee porter I used 1 batch of decaf Colombian beans, roasted on Saturday, steeped and poured into the keg on Sunday. What an amazing aroma and taste. I'm going to enter it in a competition next month.

YUM!! Do you need a (ahem) dispassionate third party to taste it for you and make sure it's good enough for the competition? Hehhehheh...

[corkybstewart]

Right now it's all I can do to not drink it all before the competition. But if I need an impartial judge I'll let you know. I will say this, even my non beer drinking friends liked it.

[DecoJuicer]

I used to be a coffee nut, but I kind of got over that. At home I drink the Folgers Simply Smooth blend. It is a little gentler on the stomach.

The stuff that we have at work is just like battery acid though. I only drink it once in a while, and then I cut it with plenty of milk and sugar.

When it comes to coffee, I'm just in it for the wake up. In fact, I have to go set up my coffee maker for tommorrow morning.

[corkybstewart]

We have a coffee maker at the house, but for daily use we use melita cones. We make one cup at a time when we're alone (95% of the time). So fresh roasted/ground coffee really is amazingly better than store bought coffee. Its like the difference between craft beer and BMC. Not only is it better, but you don't feel like you have to drink as much.

[Erin W]

I'm no expert, but I think the actual history of the word douche was coined by the eyewitness of the first known collision of a water truck and a vinegar truck at high speed.


Great tangent everyone, just like a nice spring rain.

[Seymour]

You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
You got peanut butter on my chocolate!

[Erin W]

Originally posted by Seymour
You got chocolate in my peanut butter!
You got peanut butter on my chocolate!



;) Exactly...

[Sladek]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
We have a coffee maker at the house, but for daily use we use melita cones. We make one cup at a time when we're alone (95% of the time). So fresh roasted/ground coffee really is amazingly better than store bought coffee. Its like the difference between craft beer and BMC. Not only is it better, but you don't feel like you have to drink as much. I agree. I don't even own a coffee maker. I only drink coffee from a coffee maker if I absolutely have to. I make one cup at a time with a small filter cone. I freshly grind the coffee for each cup. If I have guests I do the same, but with a bigger cone and directly into a caraffe. I'm against coffee makers because they invariably burn the coffee. At work, I'm lucky, because the director of our institute is European and bought us an espresso machine. I'm used to espresso drinks, and the difference in taste between that and filtered is rather dramatic, I'd say. I don't the get the American "pot of see-through brown water" style of coffee.

I guess the more life goes on, I'm tired of settling for mediocrity.