View Full Version : I can't believe it! I just can't believe it!
This past friday I bought some beer and this particular brand has what they call a "pull-date". When I took the beer out of the cooler I took a quick look and saw 0513 and thought to myself good fairly fresh, still a month to go. The first beer I did not notice anything different, but the second I notice the carbonation not as lively as it should of been. On the start of the third I notice that the hop taste seem dull and lifeless and my stomach was beginning to become upset. I lifted the can up and took a look at the bottom of the can were the "pull-date" is printed and to my horror I read 05135. This beer should of been pulled from the shelf May 13th of 2005!
I took the beer back and showed the manager and she gave me a full refund.
studentofbeer
03-13-2006, 06:30 PM
at least you noticed it and took it back and the manager gave you a refund. I often don't think about doing that. also, it's nice that the particular brewer puts dates on the bottles. so many micros still don't say when their beer is best by.
When RFID tags get cheap enough for mass use, it would make sense (from a consumer perspective) to tag every 6-pack, bottle, whatever with a tag and the date, making it easier to know when stock goes bad.
still, you'd think retailers would be sophisticated enough to have a database that recorded when a product came in from the distributor along with when it was set to expire, even without RFID technology. I'd think general record-keeping would dictate this.
xtalman
03-13-2006, 08:03 PM
You see this happening a lot. I know as an example that Victory is now available here on the left coast but every time I see it it is a good month or two past its best buy date. This is not isolated to one retailer either.
Originally posted by xtalman
You see this happening a lot. I know as an example that Victory is now available here on the left coast but every time I see it it is a good month or two past its best buy date. This is not isolated to one retailer either.
Victory will not sell to the distributors in WA anymore because their beer was always past its prime. At least that is what I have been told by the vendors that used to carry their beers.
I appreciate micro brewers like Great Lakes, Sierra Nevada, Bell's just to name a few who have some type of date either letting you know when it will be at its best or when the beer was bottled. The three brewers I mention all have a different system of dating. Bell's have a batch number on their bottles and from that you can go to their website and find out when the beer was bottled. Sierra Nevada uses a system for example if its beer was bottled today you would read 6072. Great lake gives you a date when beer should not be sold after. It would be nice and much easier if everyone used the same system.
steveh
03-13-2006, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Jake
I lifted the can up and took a look at the bottom...
Okay...I'll bite (because I still don't see cans as a good beer dispenser), what were you drinking from the can that you could discern good hop character/flavor?
S.
Originally posted by steveh
Okay...I'll bite (because I still don't see cans as a good beer dispenser), what were you drinking from the can that you could discern good hop character/flavor?
S.
Poured into a pilsner glass, but the can was near by.
At one time I would never of thought of buying beer in a can, but a discussion on this site changed my mind. With beer in cans you need not worry about light damage. Many studies show that even the experts really cannot taste the difference between bottled beer and beer in a can.
HogieWan
03-13-2006, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Jake
Poured into a pilsner glass, but the can was near by..
I'm sure steve's comment cme from the fact that he thought you were drinking from the can. I find the can to be a good storage vessal for beer.
zoom6zoom
03-13-2006, 10:09 PM
...as long as it's good beer going into the can in the first place.
I don't even drink sodas directly from the can or bottle anymore, my mind is just trained that way now.
steveh
03-13-2006, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by HogieWan
I find the can to be a good storage vessal for beer.
Really? I haven't tried the newer canned brews, but I've never seen a great beer canned before (though Paulaner cans its Helles).
Now, kegs and cornies are stainless, not aluminum - so let's not mistake a can for a can - but I digress, Jake still hasn't told us what hop-hardy brew he was drinking...
S.
HogieWan
03-13-2006, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by steveh
Now, kegs and cornies are stainless, not aluminum
S.
Cans are lined and have been since before I was born. The only way you'll taste the AL is if ou wrap your mouth around it.
I did a taste test on the Paulaner Helles and couldn't mrk a difference between can and bottle.
newportstorm
03-13-2006, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by steveh
Okay...I'll bite (because I still don't see cans as a good beer dispenser), what were you drinking from the can that you could discern good hop character/flavor?
S.
Still a doubter, eh? Try one of these for good hop character/flavor:
Dale's Pale Ale (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/2681/6518/)
New England Brewing Elm City Lager (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/357/16106/)
New England Atlantic Amber (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/357/10481/)
Cans are a superior package for beer. Ignorance and stigma are holding them back. Hopefully, when more brewers adopt them (Sly Fox just did), they'll become more prevalent.
Cheers!
newportstorm
03-13-2006, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Jake
I appreciate micro brewers like Great Lakes, Sierra Nevada, Bell's just to name a few who have some type of date either letting you know when it will be at its best or when the beer was bottled. The three brewers I mention all have a different system of dating. Bell's have a batch number on their bottles and from that you can go to their website and find out when the beer was bottled. Sierra Nevada uses a system for example if its beer was bottled today you would read 6072. Great lake gives you a date when beer should not be sold after. It would be nice and much easier if everyone used the same system.
Bottle codes that require the customer to research via a website is asinine. You're basically alienating customers by telling them that:
a) if you have no computer access, forget finding out how fresh my beer is (save for a phone call - still ridiculous)
b) I have the knowledge and technology to tell you how fresh my beer is, but I'm going to make you work for it
c) :p
Beer is a foodstuff and should require bottling/freshness dates. I prefer the bottling date, as some breweries can and do date their beer up to 1 year out - too long for some, esp. imports which can and do get abused in transport. There needs to be some uniformity with regards to dating. I applaud those brewers who care enough to date their beer and say pbbbbbbbt! to those who don't.
Cheers!
jjpm74
03-13-2006, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by newportstorm
Still a doubter, eh? Try one of these for good hop character/flavor:
Dale's Pale Ale (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/2681/6518/)
New England Brewing Elm City Lager (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/357/16106/)
New England Atlantic Amber (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/357/10481/)
Cans are a superior package for beer. Ignorance and stigma are holding them back. Hopefully, when more brewers adopt them (Sly Fox just did), they'll become more prevalent.
Cheers!
That and you can't cellar them.
I wish brewers would put dates on their bottles. I actually saw a six pack of New England Brewing Atlantic Amber BOTTLES in a package store that will remain nameless. That means they have to be at least 5 years old.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by steveh
Jake still hasn't told us what hop-hardy brew he was drinking...
S.
I did that for a reason steveh. The topic was about grossly outdated beer and freshness dating. By mentioning the name of the beer I avoided all the debate on whether this was a micro or macro, good beer or bad beer etc. I failed to hide the fact the beer was in a can, but thats ok because I like to rehash that debate.
steveh
03-14-2006, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Jake By mentioning the name of the beer I avoided all the debate on whether this was a micro or macro, good beer or bad beer etc. [/B]
Uh huh. My guess is that it wasn't Dale's or New England Brewing.
S.
guildofevil
03-14-2006, 06:51 AM
I don't think Best Before Dates on beer are as simple as all that. The very fact that the quality of the product can be adversely effected by poor handling complicates matters.
Should the brewer estimate beer life, assuming that it will be handled correctly?
Or should he assume that the beer will be mishandled?
On the one hand you risk some of your customers getting beer that has passed it's best, while on the other you risk perfectly good beer being taken off the selves because it is assumed to be bad.
Bear in mind that some beer ages in the bottle. Chimay Blue, for instance, is considered to reach it's peak after five years in the bottle, if cellared correctly.
Séan
newportstorm
03-14-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by guildofevil
I don't think Best Before Dates on beer are as simple as all that. The very fact that the quality of the product can be adversely effected by poor handling complicates matters.
Should the brewer estimate beer life, assuming that it will be handled correctly?
Or should he assume that the beer will be mishandled?
On the one hand you risk some of your customers getting beer that has passed it's best, while on the other you risk perfectly good beer being taken off the selves because it is assumed to be bad.
Bear in mind that some beer ages in the bottle. Chimay Blue, for instance, is considered to reach it's peak after five years in the bottle, if cellared correctly.
Séan
Selling beer outside the brewer's control is a risk. Period. Hopefully, the brewer uses tools available to him/her to try to ensure fresh beer reaches their customers. That includes:
-bottling dates (freshness dates)
-carefully selecting your distributor
-being diligent about product rotation (on top of what the retailer/distributor should be doing)
-educating the consumer as well as the retailer/distributor about their products
-not expanding outside a territory where you can monitor your products (far too many midwest/west coast brews come to New England and languish due to lack of a brewery employee keeping a presence in the area
Cheers!
studentofbeer
03-14-2006, 11:23 AM
one of the reasons anchor pasteurizes all their beer is because they sell in all 50 states and worldwide, and feel the pasteurization process gives them more shelf-life. Even with Keep Refrigerated labeled on every box, case etc., of course most distributors or stores leave it out on shelves.
again, i would think good record-keeping could help sort things out. Know which # of batches went to which distributor in which places on which date. If you get a complaint you can then try to figure out if the beer was just too old, something went wrong at the brewery that Q/A missed, or if it seems like it had been mishandled on the way to the consumer. then, depending on the answer, you put some pressure on distributors to shape up.
maybe store employees just need to "sample" the beer more often to "test" it's quality.
newportstorm
03-14-2006, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by studentofbeer
again, i would think good record-keeping could help sort things out. Know which # of batches went to which distributor in which places on which date. If you get a complaint you can then try to figure out if the beer was just too old, something went wrong at the brewery that Q/A missed, or if it seems like it had been mishandled on the way to the consumer. then, depending on the answer, you put some pressure on distributors to shape up.
This is the one area where I think brewery-only (specific) bottle codes could be really helpful. A bottling date/freshness date will give you an idea of how old the beer is. But a brewery code could tell the brewery which batch, tank, etc. that beer came from. With larger craft breweries, I'm sure all the beer doesn't come from the same batch/tank, even when bottled on the same day - most probably do back to back (to back...) brew sessions.
When a complaint comes in, they can track them. Teaching distributor and retail staff to monitor this would be great but sometimes a frustrating task. Many distributors carry so many product lines, they can hardly keep them straight, let alone sell them all properly and monitor inventory. Sad, but true. Turnover on any level creates a new hole for old/bad beer to slip through while new employees catch on to the learning curve. Then there are retailers who just want to "sell beer" and wipe their hands clean of dates, problems, etc. Again, sad but true.
And "putting pressure" on distributors isn't always that easy. If the brand is a slow/below average seller, the distributor is probably focusing on faster moving products and will address the issue when they can. Or not at all. There are some horrible distributors out there and breweries can find it difficult to break free of their distribution agreement, even when poor service is apparent.
Cheers!
hops99
03-14-2006, 02:57 PM
And "putting pressure" on distributors isn't always that easy. If the brand is a slow/below average seller, the distributor is probably focusing on faster moving products and will address the issue when they can. Or not at all. There are some horrible distributors out there and breweries can find it difficult to break free of their distribution agreement, even when poor service is apparent.
I can vouch for this first hand. The largest specialty distributor that I can buy from in my area is a friggin' train wreck. Their gigantic warehouse has no air-conditioning, only two small coolers that they use exclusively for Coors products, and non-refrigerated delivery trucks. Great Lakes products, for instance, are kept at 75 degrees plus in the warehouse all summer long, etc. etc.
The real problem is that I can't tell the distributor to pound salt - I'm legally obligated to buy products from distributors that have terrtitoriality in my area. I've called some of the breweries to let them know about the conditions at said warehouse, and received no response. Furthermore, if I bitch at the distributor enough, instead of correcting the problem, they'll just drop the product.
And, I'd guess that it's this way at hundreds of distributors around the country. Now, there are some good ones that I deal with - guys that actually care about the craft beer they're handling who don't treat it as a commodity, but they're more the exception than the rule. And don't get me started with distributors trying to knowingly sneak outdated product into stores. Arrggghhhhh!
One funny note, though: My Coors delivery driver was bitching and moaning all summer last year. Apparently, they were keeping all Coors product in their only coolers at the warehouse as a mandate from Coors (you know, "taste the cold" - our beer stays cold from the brewery to your kitchen, etc.). Well, their delivery trucks are NOT refrigerated, so when they loaded Coors stuff in their warm/hot trucks on hot summer days, the cardboard would turn wet, and eventually rip. I guess there wasn't a day that went by last July without him dropping a bunch of Coors.
xtalman
03-14-2006, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Jake
Sierra Nevada uses a system for example if its beer was bottled today you would read 6072.
The actual bottle date is printed in plainly on their boxes. Sams Club has started selling cases of SN around here and at $15.00 a case not a bad deal. The last case I bought was bottled in Oct 2005 and tastes fine.
Originally posted by HogieWan
I find the can to be a good storage vessal for beer. [/B]
I would love to taste all those green bottle beers in a can especially Pilsner Urquell which I can only find in bottles around here,
hell I might even like Heineken in a can- well that might be a bit of a stretch.
steveh
03-14-2006, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Jake
I might even like Heineken in a can- well that might be a bit of a stretch.
C'mon man - you make a statement like that, but you can't tell us what beer started this whole debate?
As Hogie said, the Paulaner bottle and can side-by-side was indistinguishable, so who's to say the Heinie wouldn't be? Non light-struck, of course, because I'll defend to the end Urquell in the covered twelve-packs.
Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jag here, I'm just interested in the whole experiment. Truth be told, I recently cracked the cap on some old Swiller Lite I'd bought for my BIL (figured this stuff must have been at least 4 years old) - just for the hell of it. It actually, to my palate, had more malty (if not a bit caramalized) flavor than any Swiller I'd ever had. I can't explain it.
S.
steveh
03-14-2006, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by HogieWan
Cans are lined and have been since before I was born.
Lined with what? I've never heard anything about that except from the old Keystone commercials - and they were trying to tell me "bitter beer" was baaaad. :/
Honestly though, I really am leery of beer in cans from all my college years. Wrap my mouth around them? Probably did - no one ever poured a beer from a can into a glass back then.
S.
...and before you ask, no - I'm not terribly fond of Guinness from the can, but yeah - I always pour it into a glass.
danno
03-14-2006, 07:40 PM
we had a lambic in BJCP class last year that had a "best before 2017" label on it...
studentofbeer
03-14-2006, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by danno
we had a lambic in BJCP class last year that had a "best before 2017" label on it...
lol nice. sometimes with lambics and other beers with strange yeasts like some saisons, you never quite know if what you are tasting is "meant to be" or some weird reaction from aging. it's usually interesting tho!
newportstorm
03-14-2006, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by steveh
Lined with what? I've never heard anything about that except from the old Keystone commercials - and they were trying to tell me "bitter beer" was baaaad. :/
Water based polymer (plastic) lining - won't allow beer to metal contact yet doesn't interfere with the beer's aroma or taste - at least, in my experience. On occasion I'll swig from a bottle - never straight from a can.
Cheers!
HogieWan
03-14-2006, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by steveh
As Hogie said, the Paulaner bottle and can side-by-side was indistinguishable, so who's to say the Heinie wouldn't be?
But the paulaner comes in brown bottles (really thick brown bottles that would probably take a bullet and still be ready for homebrew), which heinie doesn't. As much as I'd like to argue about the beer going in the container being the same and it's the handling that killed it, we just read a few horror stories above. You be the judge.
BTW - craft brewers putting beer in cans would KILL homebrewers that bottle their brew.
steveh
03-14-2006, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by HogieWan
But the paulaner comes in brown bottles...which heinie doesn't.
"Non light-struck, of course," Jeez, you guys and your paraphrasing are becoming as bad as the news media! :rolleyes:
S.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by steveh
[B]C'mon man - you make a statement like that, but you can't tell us what beer started this whole debate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your right and the statement was hypocritical on my part because I don't really dislike Heineken or like it . I will say this- I was very disappointed the first time I had Heineken. The priced I paid to what I got made me mad.
Richard English
03-17-2006, 05:11 PM
Several points here:
Quote "...Many studies show that even the experts really cannot taste the difference between bottled beer and beer in a can...."
They might not be able to taste the difference between fizz beers but for sure you'd be able to taste the difference between a bottle-conditioned beer and a canned beer.
Quote "...one of the reasons anchor pasteurizes all their beer is because they sell in all 50 states and worldwide, and feel the pasteurization process gives them more shelf-life. ..."
A myth that a surprising number believe. Pasteurised beer might last a little longer than unpastuerised fizz beer (say three months instead of two) - but for the maximum shelf life you need a bottle-conditioned beer. Even the weaker ones have a shelf life of AT LEAST a year and the more noble ones, such a Thomas Hardy's, will last for a decade or more.
Quote "...I don't think Best Before Dates on beer are as simple as all that...."
In the UK we are, I have to say without any apology, well ahead of the USA in customer protection insofar as foodstuffs are concerned. Not only must every foodstuff (including beer) have a "best before" date shown in clear English (not as a code) but also every foodstuff must be sold in precise and clearly shown quantities. A bottle will have the capacity clearly shown and draught beers must be sold in exact multiples of a pint. Spirits must also be sold in precise measures. Furthermore, the price charged for all drinks, and the quantities to which the price applies, are shown on a price list which must be visible to customers before they buy.
So anyone entering an English pub can know, before ordering, exactly how much beer he will get and its price. And he can walk out before buying if the price doesn't suit.
Failure to abide by the law is a criminal offence carrying a very heavy fine.
And incidentally, if your glass of draught beer isn't filled to the brim, you have a legal right to ask for it to be topped up.
chazwicke
03-17-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by steveh
Lined with what? I've never heard anything about that except from the old Keystone commercials - and they were trying to tell me "bitter beer" was baaaad. :/
Beer cans have been lined since their origin in 1935. A silicone lining was sprayed into the cans back then. The process was patented and trademarked as "Keglined". The original cans also had instructions on how to use a can opener printed on the sides of them. Canned beer was targeted at the woman who was the grocery shopper. They were designed to fit neatly on a refigerator shelf where tall bottles would not fit. hence the "Steinie" bottles came into existance to compete. The Glass companies did try circulating propaganda against the canned beer as well. Such as "that metallic taste". Beer in cans does have some advantages. especially the newer aluminum bottles. I prefer brown bottles from inside a case but if brewers who care so much about their products like Sly Fox think it is OK than it must be. Years past I would never drink beer from a can but those days are gone. Newer technology has made it OK. So while I still prefer fresh from the cask first and bottles second, I won't eschew canned beer. And in fact I have high hopes for some of these micros that are canning. As long as i can pour it into a glass to drink I think i'm fine with it.
Old Dominion has always had the bottling date on their bottles. From the very beginning in the 80s.
Richard is right about the English laws regarding foodstuffs, labeling and quantities. Consumers should know what they are getting and what they can expect when purchasing.
The alcohol industry has gone both ways on this. And the govt. has disallowed the labeling or alcohol percentages on some products while requiring it on others.
chazwicke
03-17-2006, 05:41 PM
And I still want to know what beer it was that Jake drank originally.:D
steveh
03-17-2006, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by chazwicke
Beer in cans does have some advantages. especially the newer aluminum bottles.
I guess my point on cans is that there just isn't, or at least wasn't, a lot of better beer in cans. I've yet to try some of the newer micros being canned, but I'm still a bit skeptical. But, a trade-off between aluminum and silicone? Now I know why my college beer always tasted like caulk! ;)
S.
DecoJuicer
03-17-2006, 07:04 PM
I just found out that the companythat my nephew works for makes the material that most of the companies use to line their cans. I thought about this thread when he was telling me that.
threecb
03-17-2006, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by steveh
I've yet to try some of the newer micros being canned, but I'm still a bit skeptical.
Steve, do yourself a favor and get your hands on some Dale's or Old Chubb. Even if you need someone there to blind taste with another Pale Ale. I was skeptical, too, but a decanted can is just as fresh and delish a bottle. And a pretty convenient camping alternative. It's not the cans, it's the beer that has been in them up until recently.
I can't wait to get the Sly Fox products at my local!
Richard English
03-18-2006, 03:28 AM
But I stick to my point. So far as I'm aware there are no "can-conditioned" beers and thus all canned beer must be sterile and stable - just as must be all canned food.
Raw food, like "raw" beer, cannot be canned.
Fuller's London Pride from a can is not anywhere near as good as Fullers 1845 from a bottle; from a cask both are excellent.
Originally posted by chazwicke
And I still want to know what beer it was that Jake drank originally.:D
Leinenkugels. There I said It!
I think I have put a little fire under Griffin Beverage Company butt. I have now bought 2 other beer besides the one mention above that were out-dated. The Rolling Rock would of been a year old March 31 and Killian's Irish Red was a month pass its pull-date. The store owner told me that he had just received a new shipment of the Killian's a week ago and that it was already outdated before he received it from them.
I called Rolling Rock and Killian's to find out how their date codes work and then told them I was holding in my hand one of their beers I had just bought that was out-dated. They promply offered to send me a rebate check for the cost of the 6 pack. They both said they were going to call the distributor.
steveh
03-18-2006, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Jake
Leinenkugels. There I said It!
I feel better now - at least it wasn't Old Stale! ;)
S.
threecb
03-18-2006, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Richard English
But I stick to my point. So far as I'm aware there are no "can-conditioned" beers and thus all canned beer must be sterile and stable - just as must be all canned food.
I wasn't comparing canned to bottle-conditioned beer. There are a lot of very good craft beers that aren't bottle conditioned. I understand your points on shelf life and stability.
My point was to steveh that a good canned craft beer (non-bc), once decanted, would be indistinguishable from the bottled product.
Richard English
03-18-2006, 01:11 PM
Quote "...My point was to steveh that a good canned craft beer (non-bc), once decanted, would be indistinguishable from the bottled product...."
That I would probably agree with. Both are stable and finished products which do not mature in storage. I rarely drink canned beer but sometimes do so on a train or flight. Generally the drink on offer is the usual multi-national rubbish - John Smith, Carlsberg, Budweiser - and I usually have a Scotch whisky, which, thank goodness, has never yet been ruined as have so many beers.
However, Virgin Trains sometimes have Fuller's London Pride and I have often had a can of it and it's not too bad. Nowhere near so good as the cask-conditioned variety, of course, but then neither is the bottled London Pride as it's not bottle-conditioned.
"What's Brewing" did a comparison between bottle-conditioned and brewery-conditioned beers a while ago and found it a hard task since few brewers offer the same beer in both forms. But what they found of those that did, was that the bottle-conditioned beer was superior in every way - more complex, greater depth of flavour - and their judgement accords with mine.
A good bottle-conditioned beer is as good as a cask-conditioned beer - and I can't say that about any of the brewery-conditioned beers, whether in can or bottle, that I've ever sampled.
newportstorm
03-18-2006, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Richard English
Several points here:
Quote "...Many studies show that even the experts really cannot taste the difference between bottled beer and beer in a can...."
They might not be able to taste the difference between fizz beers but for sure you'd be able to taste the difference between a bottle-conditioned beer and a canned beer.
Apples to oranges. I think the point made was trying to discern between similar beers in bottles and cans; brewed in the same fashion, but simply packaged in different containers. Comparing a filtered, pasteurized beer to an unfiltered, bottle conditioned beer is pointless.
Richard English
03-18-2006, 02:56 PM
Quote, "...Comparing a filtered, pasteurized beer to an unfiltered, bottle conditioned beer is pointless..."
I agree. But the difference between brewery-conditioned beers and bottle-conditioned beers is not always understood by many - including some of those who post to this board.
As many do not understand the difference between draught and tap beer (for which discussion see my other thread).
And the original poster himself did not make the distinction either - although your own comment does so.
newportstorm
03-18-2006, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Richard English
But I stick to my point. So far as I'm aware there are no "can-conditioned" beers and thus all canned beer must be sterile and stable - just as must be all canned food.
Can-conditioned? Dunno. I do know that Newport Storm does not own a pasteurizer and based on the sediment I've found in some of their Amber Ale cans, it isn't tightly filtered either.
Wittekerke Wit comes in cans and maintains the hazy appearance that is in line with the style.
And what about the old Rodenbach cans? Were they packaged differently than the bottles? Filtered? Not on lees?
And while I'm unsure about Dale's Pale Ale/Old Chub, I do know that Oskar Blues' "Leroy" is an unfiltered Brown Ale that was a limited edition canned product.
Too easy to say that can-conditioning can't be done....
Cheers!
Richard English
03-18-2006, 03:52 PM
I doubt that an ordinary can would withstand the pressure involved with a secondary fermentation. It would be quite possible to have a cloudy beer without there having been secondary fermentation
I have an idea the some brewers are experimenting with a different style of can to give a "cask-conditioned" style and it might be that there is secondary fermentation, but I don't know for sure.
Wittekerke Wit will have the cloudiness common to the style but that cloudiness is present in all dispenses of that kind of beer; secondary fermentation is not the cause of it.
toneyc
03-18-2006, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Richard English
I doubt that an ordinary can would withstand the pressure involved with a secondary fermentation.
I'm no chemist, but let's take canned soda for example. I think the pressure used to carbonate soda is about 30 psi, right? And it has to maintain that pressure or the co2 would come out of solution, right? And that's 30 psi at about 38*F/3*C, at room temperature there would be significantly higher pressure, but it isn't until over 120*F/49*C that soda cans start bursting. Anybody have a chart that might tell us what pressure that might be? Hmmm, this sounds like a fun backyard project. Put a tire fill valve in an empty soda can and pump it up till it bursts! Y'all hold my beer and watch this!
:D
Toney.
mookow
03-19-2006, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by toneyc
Y'all hold my beer and watch this!
:D
Toney.
Would you please state your full name and the address you want your Darwin Award mailed to?
jjpm74
03-19-2006, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by toneyc
I'm no chemist, but let's take canned soda for example. I think the pressure used to carbonate soda is about 30 psi, right? And it has to maintain that pressure or the co2 would come out of solution, right? And that's 30 psi at about 38*F/3*C, at room temperature there would be significantly higher pressure, but it isn't until over 120*F/49*C that soda cans start bursting. Anybody have a chart that might tell us what pressure that might be? Hmmm, this sounds like a fun backyard project. Put a tire fill valve in an empty soda can and pump it up till it bursts! Y'all hold my beer and watch this!
:D
Toney.
In my completely unscientific experience I've had corks shoot off bottles and punch holes in my ceiling and brewed beers that were bottled in heavy bottles and explode. Given that, I don't know if I'd want to see a bottle conditioned can. Then again, I'd love to see this become a reality given the pretty much air tight seal, no light issues and the fact that you can trade a can and ship it and not have to worry about bubble wrapping it, not to mention the weight difference.
Richard English
03-19-2006, 03:11 AM
I did some research on this once and found that the pressure in a champagne bottle is around 6 - 7 atmospheres - getting on for 100 psi.
This was discussed on these pages many months ago and someone suggested that the pressure in a beer bottle was less than that of a champagne bottle, but gave no evidence.
Certainly the pressure is a soda bottle is considerably less than that in the bottles used for bottle-conditioned beer; just pick up an empty example of each and the much lighter weight of the soda bottle is evident. If you need proof, just try to condition some beer in a soda bottle (do it in a shed where the flying glass won't matter when the inevitable explosion occurs).
My own guess is that the pressure in a bottle of bottle-conditioned beer would be approaching that of champagne, judging the matter by the results when either is carelessly uncorked.
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