Priming vs. Forced Carb'ing

[Halgarmeister]

Here's a question for you Keg guys. I know that CO2 pressure is what pushes the beer through the lines and keeps the keg from going flat. Is there a difference in the beer's flavor or the carbonation itself between priming and forced carb'ing? And does it matter if the beer is primed or does it require forced carb'ing to be served from a keg?

[zoom6zoom]

It doesn't have to be force carbed to serve from a keg, it's just faster, you don't have to wait for the CO2 to generate naturally.

[corkybstewart]

You also get cleaner beer since all that fermentation will create sediment that stays in the keg until you pour a few glasses.

[Halgarmeister]

So there is negligeble difference in the "finished" carbonation and flavor of carb'ing over priming.

I wish I could test my homebrew against the pubs version, because they carbonate. Unfortunately, they brew for several other restaurants in town and they've changed the recipe from thier own brew to a conglomeration of 3 or 4 different recipes. Now, it's little better than a Budweiser, IMO, and I won't drink it anymore.


I still have SSSSOOOOOOOOOOOO much to learn... :)

[Richard English]

Quote "...Is there a difference in the beer's flavor or the carbonation itself between priming and forced carb'ing?..."

Yes. This has been discussed many, many times and there is no doubt in my mind that forced carbonation produces a poorer drink than does natural carbonation.

Compare a bottle of Fuller's 1845 or Young's SLA with any force-carbonated equivalent.

Try any "tap" beer against a cask-conditioned equivalent.

Try force-carbonated sparkling wine against Methode Traditionale (Champagne method) sparkling wine.

Don't believe the pontifications of thoise who try to claim that carbon dioxide is the same, regardless of whether it comes from a gas cylinder or fermenting yeast. It is not as simple as that - there is something at the sub-molecular level that makes a difference - as your taste buds will tell you.

[HogieWan]

I believe co2 is co2, no matter where it comes from. However, yeast, in practice, don't give off just co2. There are other gases released during fermentation that get trapped when priming. THese compounds become part of the beer along with the co2, leading to the little something extra.

[corkybstewart]

You beat me to it Hogie, that's almost exactly what I was going to say. To naturally get the CO2 into the beer there is a complete fermentation process going on and that involves lots of chemical/biological stuff. That's the difference, not the CO2.

[Halgarmeister]

It stood to reason that there would be subtle differences between the two. IMHO, anything that occurs naturally is going to be better than the use of outside or chemical means to do the same thing (not specifically refering to beer here, but it still applies ).

Are there any issues with foaming and such when using CO2 to push primed beer though a tap? I am correct that the use of CO2 as a "propellent" also maintains the level of carbonation within the keg as it's used, aren't I?

[steveh]

There's also a big chance of CO2 "bite" with force carbing then pumping via CO2 - very sharp, metallic - not pleasant.

S.

[Halgarmeister]

Hmm, never though of off flavors like THAT!! Yikes!!

[corkybstewart]

I've got a question here. If I'm kegging a lager, do I prime before lagering, or after. It doesn't seem like there be enough active yeast still in suspension after 2 months in the fridge.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
I've got a question here. If I'm kegging a lager, do I prime before lagering, or after. It doesn't seem like there be enough active yeast still in suspension after 2 months in the fridge.

traditional lager brewers carbonated during the lagering phase by krausening with actively fermenting beer. This also introduced "clean" yeast that can absorb more of the fermentation by-products.

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by HogieWan
I believe co2 is co2, no matter where it comes from. However, yeast, in practice, don't give off just co2. There are other gases released during fermentation that get trapped when priming. THese compounds become part of the beer along with the co2, leading to the little something extra.

It's generally accepted that adding champagne yeast to a high gravity wort post-aerobic fermentation with another preferred yeast is okay because it will finish the ferment w/o adding any flavor of it's own. Now we are saying that existing yeast will add special character as it ferments out 5 oz. of priming sugar -- we're talking .01 percent sucrose/dextrose versus what? maybe 10% maltose and such. That makes no sense.

[HogieWan]

Originally posted by Derekt2
Now we are saying that existing yeast will add special character as it ferments out 5 oz. of priming sugar -- we're talking .01 percent sucrose/dextrose versus what? maybe 10% maltose and such. That makes no sense.


Yes - after fermentation, only alcohol is left, but was it pure co2 gas given off, or were there other gases?

[Derekt2]

Yeast consume sugar and produce alcohol and CO2. That's it. Any excretion is a result of poor yeast health and has nothing to do with fermentation other than indicating there is a problem. Esters and a host of other chemical compounds are a seperate part of fermentation but not a factor in a dilute sugar solution such as primer.

[toneyc]

Now hang on just a second... If yeast produces *only* co2 and alcohol, I could use any strain of yeast, including bread yeast, to ferment my beer and it would taste the same. I don't think that I can accept that statement.

On the other hand, the question of natural carbonation vs. forced carbonation seems to be a matter of almost religious preference. While I respect your opinions, I must say that my palate is not sophisticated enough to discern the difference between the two methods.

:)
Toney.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by toneyc
On the other hand, the question of natural carbonation vs. forced carbonation seems to be a matter of almost religious preference.

There will be wars fought over the issue!!

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by toneyc
Now hang on just a second... If yeast produces *only* co2 and alcohol, I could use any strain of yeast, including bread yeast, to ferment my beer and it would taste the same. I don't think that I can accept that statement.

On the other hand, the question of natural carbonation vs. forced carbonation seems to be a matter of almost religious preference. While I respect your opinions, I must say that my palate is not sophisticated enough to discern the difference between the two methods.

:)
Toney.

Let me clarify in context: In terms of gas, yeast only produces CO2. Esters, aldehydes, etc. are not functions of gas (snicker) but rather chemical/orrganic by-products of fermentation we perceive as desireable in most cases.

I can't tell the difference between natural v. forved, btw, especially with Belgians -- they are all gassy and many Belgians are bottled conditioned and highly so.

BTW, you can ferment with bread yeast, some yeast likely came from such sources, but bread yeast becomes sluggish over about 3% ABV and pickles at about 5 or so (I used to do bread yeast experiemnst all the time, especially with cider. Tastes quite a bit like some generic Britsih strains if you want to know the truth).

[Richard English]

Quote "...While I respect your opinions, I must say that my palate is not sophisticated enough to discern the difference between the two methods...."

Really? Can you not tell the difference between a bottled-conditioned ale like Fuller's 1845 and a brewery-conditioned bottled beer like Budweiser?

Or a Methode Traditionale (Champagne) sparkling wine from a brewery-conditioned production?

I take leave to doubt that.

[corkybstewart]

I'm with you Toney. I can't imagine being able to taste that small of a chemical difference. I have primed kegs in the past, will do it again this summer, but I honestly don't think I can tell thedifference in tast. Maybe the mouthfeels is smoother with primed kegs, but that's the only potential difference I can think of.
After seeing Mr. English's post I need to add something. Of course I can tell the difference between Bud and beer. But if I take 2 kegs of the same batch, force carbonate one and prime the other, I don't know if I could tell the difference. Possibly, but not garaunteed. And if there is a difference, who knows which one I would consider "better"?

[Derekt2]

Originally posted by Richard English
Quote "...While I respect your opinions, I must say that my palate is not sophisticated enough to discern the difference between the two methods...."

Really? Can you not tell the difference between a bottled-conditioned ale like Fuller's 1845 and a brewery-conditioned bottled beer like Budweiser?

Or a Methode Traditionale (Champagne) sparkling wine from a brewery-conditioned production?

I take leave to doubt that.

Your comparing apples to oranges. Give me two bottles of Fullers: one primed and the other charged to *exactly* the same volume of CO2 and serve them to me at *exactly* the same temp w/o agitation. I dount any one of us can pick out the ringer. You *might* be able to tell that one is somehow different but i doubt you will know which is which and I'm not even sure you would see a difference.

[DecoJuicer]

This actually sounds like a pretty good experiment to me. Make a 10 gallon batch and split it into 2 5 gallon batchs. Keep the primaries and secondaries right next to each other and add any ingredients at the same time and under the same conditions. Then keg into 2 5 gallon cornies. Force carbonate one and let the other carbonate naturally. Then do a blind taste test.

I wish that Iwas set up to do 10 gallon batches, I would be all over this one. I may still try to do it, though it will be a little tougher using the equipment that I have.

[corkybstewart]

I'll do it later this spring when the garage warms up enough to prime a keg, not just sweeten it. Since I always brew 10 gallons this will be fairly easy. Right now the beer room is still at lagering temps but a few more of these 85+ days and I'll be aling again.

[Richard English]

Quote "...Give me two bottles of Fullers: one primed and the other charged to *exactly* the same volume of CO2 and serve them to me at *exactly* the same temp w/o agitation. ..."

Sadly this is difficult to do since few (no?) brewers make identical brews with only this difference.

What's Brewing did try, about a year ago, to run a proper comparitative trial and found it very difficult for this very reason. But the brews they were able to compare bore out my contention.

I used sparkling wine as an example since it is easier to find and use in comparitive tests.

The difference is not simply one of gas or peripheral products. There is something happening at a sub-molecular level which I don't pretend to understand. Suffice to say that artificially carbonated drinks will have a huge fizz when they are opened and that fizz will soon disappear. Naturally carbonated drinks will have less fizz when they are opened, but that fizz will last far longer.

Don't take my word for it; try it.

[DecoJuicer]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
...but a few more of these 85+ days and I'll be aling again.

Gee thanks. It was 32 degrees when I left work this morning. We were excited that friday is supposed to be 59.

[corkybstewart]

The sad part of 85F is that instead of lounging around the house with a homebrew in one hand and the remote in the other, I was forced to spend all weekend digging up sprinkler lines that are broken or gopher eaten, trimming hedges, general cleanup of the yard, etc. Almost too tired to drink a beer. Also if it's 85 now just think how hot it'll be in July.

[DecoJuicer]

I was in Phoenix in July once. I almost burst into flames at 107 degrees. But it's a dry heat(rolling my eyes).

[corkybstewart]

The hottest I've ever seen down here was 119. Dry heat my ass. The coldest I've seen was back in December, it was 5, and I was working in the field that week, sleeping in my pick-up truck for 4 nights. Froze my ass off 4 days, then it jumped to 75 and our winter basically ended.

[Halgarmeister]

Originally posted by corkybstewart
Almost too tired to drink a beer.

From doing yard work? NEVER!!! LOL <<wink wink> Beer is a staple of doing yard work around here. We try not to start before 2 or 3 because after that first one, others must follow with increasing frequency. Makes for some gnarly looking hedges, if you know what I mean... LOL

I wait with great excitement for the results of your comparison. I'm not a religious man <G> and don't have a preference either way, and, at the moment my only means of carb'ing is by priming. As has been posted, I suspect that the results will be hard to distihguish, the primed batch will have just a hint more body and subtle fizz while the forced batch will taste fine, have larger bubbles and seem to lack "just a little bit of something". Without them side by side, one would probably not notice a difference.

[wild]

Originally posted by DecoJuicer
I was in Phoenix in July once. I almost burst into flames at 107 degrees. But it's a dry heat(rolling my eyes).
107° in July? That must have been right before dawn or after a monsoon storm.

Wild